Lebanese Religious Leaders: Are they Anachronistic?

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by Ghassan Karam

The Maronite Patriarch, Al Rai, has demonstrated one more time why is it that men of the cloth should not deal with politics but should confine themselves to their field of expertise , religious  guidance. The logic in this case is quite simple: a rational person would not seek the advice of a carpenter when an automotive vehicle breaks down neither would one seek the guidance of an electrician when the bathroom sink develops a leak. If the above is true, and I sure hope that it is, then why would I need to listen to the advice of a clergy when the issue is purely political? This matter of separation becomes even more urgent among the Christian clergy whose spiritual master, Jesus Christ, asked them to “Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s”.

That has been the basis for the separation between church and the state and it continues to be. That is why a secular state is a state that does not consider the religious beliefs of its officials, simply their qualifications to do the job in question. But the Christian Maronite Church has different views. Its clergy especially its high rank ecclesiastics seldom perform their religious duties of simply preaching the tenets of their beliefs but instead issue their periodic political analysis and furthermore act as the final arbiters of what is to be enacted or not in the civilian and political realm. The Maronite clergy act more as an unelected Parliament than as men of God. An excellent example of how egregious are the pronouncements of the Maronite Church is best illustrated in the sermon given, on Friday January 6, 2012, by its most senior official, Patriarch Al Rai .

The Patriarch called upon “The Lebanese, Christians and Moslems, to preserve the Lebanese structure which consists of Moslems – Christian’s unity together and that is not built on demographic numbers but on the two cultures of Christianity and Islam. This unity forms the single civilization which is rich in its diversity of customs and beliefs. This Lebanese structure, by maintaining the principal of equal partnership, as per the constitution means a just and equal balance in positions and responsibilities. The cooperative and supportive Christian and Moslem halves form the Lebanese entity.”

A close reading of the above makes it very clear that the speaker, Patriarch Al Rai, has an uncommon understanding of what is democracy, equality or secularism. His only concern seems to provide a rationale for continuing the present unfair and undemocratic structure in Lebanese politics because it treats all people as equal but some as more equal than others.  What does the Patriarch mean when he says that Lebanon is built on the idea of equal partnership between Christians and Moslems and that demography does not count? I for one have always believed, like so many others in this world, that demography is destiny. What is the basis of this equal partnership? Is the Patriarch asking for the protection of individual freedoms and liberties for all or is he asking for equality of seats in the Chamber of deputies and for a guarantee that the President of the Republic will always be a Maronite? When would this equality of elected officials cease to be acceptable? Should the Christians be entitled to 50% of the seats in the parliament when they represent say 20% of the population? Is the strong opposition of the Maronite church for offering the Lebanese citizenship to the Palestinian refugees influenced by this shallow call for “religious balance”?

Any kind of an exchange whether it is between individuals, regions or countries, whether it is in the realm of ideas or physical goods is best when it is based on the principle of knowledge and efficiency , on comparative advantage. It is not difficult to show that people of the cloth do not have much of an advantage in anything in a modern democratic society and so society is bound to be ill served when it heeds the advice of those whose knowledge of the field in question is at best suspect.

The Lebanese have nothing to worry about if they adopt a constitution that protects individual rights and that is implemented. Once we can rise above our narrow tribal religious affiliations to elect the most competent for the job then it should make absolutely no difference whether the official is a Protestant, a Sunni, a Maronite, a Shia or a Durzi. What is important is that the individual in question is a capable, knowledgeable and a competent Lebanese. Nothing else should matter not gender, not racial origin, not sexual orientation and not the colour of one’s eyes. It is time that we ask the heads of the churches and Mosques, to leave the public square and to specialize in that which they can do best, save souls. Unfortunately I do not believe that the clergy, Christian or Moslem, are about to abdicate their political power which borders on being absolute. In the final analysis it is up to each of us to tell the clergy of our churches and mosques that the sacred and the secular are separate issues and that we will not tolerate their interference in civilian life.

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Comments

71 responses to “Lebanese Religious Leaders: Are they Anachronistic?”

  1. MeYosemite Avatar
    MeYosemite

    No one in Lebanon has demonstrated in 40 years the ability and expertise of a politician. They have only shown a narrow minded, ego maniacs, incapable of understanding the difference between a politician and a warlord. Needless to say where did they learn to act like a politician? in the civil war? At best street smart robbing their country. “Shatreen” in the Lebanese sense.

    1. Ghassan Karam Avatar
      Ghassan Karam

      Me Yosemite,
                          No doubt that you are right. My hope though, is that we do not give  up on the idea of reform and we continue to demand better.

  2.  Avatar
    Anonymous

    No one in Lebanon has demonstrated in 40 years the ability and expertise of a politician. They have only shown a narrow minded, ego maniacs, incapable of understanding the difference between a politician and a warlord. Needless to say where did they learn to act like a politician? in the civil war? At best street smart robbing their country. “Shatreen” in the Lebanese sense.

    1. Me Yosemite,
                          No doubt that you are right. My hope though, is that we do not give  up on the idea of reform and we continue to demand better.

  3. prophettt Avatar
    prophettt

    Ghassan,

    I’m in total agreement that secularism is the only way to a civil democratic  state with one national identity instead of 18 diffident identities.
    People have to understand that believing in secularism does not necessarily mean not believing in God.
    Patriarch Rai was splitting hair in order to justify the sectarian system.As you pointed out,He is  offering his own understanding of what  the word equality  means.We’ve heard leaders of other sects make similar statement about the so called “single civilization” formed by the unity of the two cultures of Christianity and Islam,as if this Civilization really exists. They all attempt to rationalize the irrational in order to protect their power over their followers.Unfortunately, religious leaders in Lebanon can get away with saying the most irrational  things, and worse the following day, people line up in order to congratulate them on their bravery  and wisdom. Any criticism is considered either an attack on the entire sect or a betrayal , depending on whether the person who dared to criticize is from the same sect or from a different sect.

    1. Ghassan Karam Avatar
      Ghassan Karam

      Prophettt
                   We have discussed this issue of secularism before and I am in agreement with your assessment that the Arabic word for secularism, AlElmaniyah, is not understood by the public for what it is. Many associate it with atheism. The real purpose of this post is to have a short reponse to the Patriarch’s statement that reflects a very distorted vision , actually a dangerous vision even for those that he thinks he is helping. Note that he says that demography does not matter when it is the driver for each of his positions such as opposition to offering citizenship to those that have been in Lebanon for over 60 years, the attempt to offer citizenship to all those of a Lebanese origin. The church really believes that by offering citizenship to those that have been away from Lebanon for over a hundred years they can then claim a majority lol. That is insanity.
      One more thing to keep in mind is the gross unequality of representation: Some Kesrwan disticts have an MP for less than 20,000 registered voters while some southern districts have an MP for every 41,000 registered voters. Why? 

      1. 5thDrawer Avatar
        5thDrawer

        Politicians love to switch electoral boundaries around … hehehhe

  4.  Avatar
    Anonymous

    Ghassan,

    I’m in total agreement that secularism is the only way to a civil democratic  state with one national identity instead of 18 diffident identities.
    People have to understand that believing in secularism does not necessarily mean not believing in God.
    Patriarch Rai was splitting hair to justify the sectarian system.As you pointed out,He is  offering his own understanding of what  the word equality  means.We’ve heard leaders of other sects make similar statement about the so called “single civilization” formed by the unity of the two cultures of Christianity and Islam,as if this Civilization really exists. They all rationalize the irrational in order to protect their power over their followers.Unfortunately, religious leaders in Lebanon can get away with saying the most irrational  things, and worse the following day, people line up in order to congratulate them on their bravery  and wisdom. Any criticism is considered either an attack on the entire sect or a betrayal , depending on whether the person who dared to criticize is from the same sect or from a different sect.

    1. Prophettt
                   We have discussed this issue of secularism before and I am in agreement with your assessment that the Arabic word for secularism, AlElmaniyah, is not understood by the public for what it is. Many associate it with atheism. The real purpose of this post is to have a short reponse to the Patriarch’s statement that reflects a very distorted vision , actually a dangerous vision even for those that he thinks he is helping. Note that he says that demography does not matter when it is the driver for each of his positions such as opposition to offering citizenship to those that have been in Lebanon for over 60 years, the attempt to offer citizenship to all those of a Lebanese origin. The church really believes that by offering citizenship to those that have been away from Lebanon for over a hundred years they can then claim a majority lol. That is insanity.
      One more thing to keep in mind is the gross unequality of representation: Some Kesrwan disticts have an MP for less than 20,000 registered voters while some southern districts have an MP for every 41,000 registered voters. Why? 

      1.  Avatar
        Anonymous

        Politicians love to switch electoral boundaries around … hehehhe

      2.  Avatar
        Anonymous

        Politicians love to switch electoral boundaries around … hehehhe

  5. Hannibal Avatar

    Ghassan,
    How will you guarantee that one “group” of people does not control everything just because it holds a religious majority? Secondly, does a secular system in the Middle East drive the demographics in a sense that for the Christians to have a representation they must too reproduce like rabbits? I do not believe, that being a Buddhist, or an atheist one has a chance to become anything in a secular Lebanon as the mind has to change before the system and do believe that minds should be changed by reforming our religions before reforming the political system. That being said, a baby step approach may be best. Like starting with gender discrimination issues, as I know thousands living in Lebanon without an ID just because their Lebanese mothers married non-Lebanese.

    1. Ghassan Karam Avatar
      Ghassan Karam

      Hannibal,
                  It would be foolish to think that a shift to secularization will not encounter problems and as you might expect I cannot deal with the minutia in a 100o word post. The fundamental issue though is the absolute need to adopt a secular system. You ask what is there to guarantee that one group will not dominate over others? My answer to that question is simply let anyone be elected if they are qualified and if they have a popular base? Do you think that I really care whether my representative is a Quaker or a Shia? Let us assume that  80% of the MP turn out to be Moslems, what is wrong about that?  What is important in a democracy is to offer protection to all citizens and then let the voters chose. At times they will be biased and at others they will be progressive. That is what is unique about democracy. You can have a regime change whenever you go to the ballot box. But the real reason for the above post is the constant meddling by men of the cloth in political affairs, an area that they are not qualified to deal with. Why bother to elect a Parliament if the real power rests with unelected clergy?

      1. Hannibal Avatar

        Let us assume that 80% of the MPs are Moslems and they vote to terminate Easter being a holiday. What does a minority Christian to do? In the West for example, Moslems will never have “Mohammed’s birthday” a holiday until such time they have enough numbers to vote it in. So in a secular country should we eliminate all religious holidays? (Just thinking out loud) 😉

        1. Ghassan Karam Avatar
          Ghassan Karam

          Hannibal,
                       In a vibrant Democracy the rights of minorities are protected.  I have no objection if all religious holidays are eliminated on the national level. Christmas and New Year are not truly Christian Holidays anyway, they are the winter solistice and Easter is the begining of spring and rebirth. BTW, I believe that Moslems do get days off on the major Islamic events in the US. They do not need to be of any special number.

        2. 5thDrawer Avatar
          5thDrawer

          Big Business has worked against holidays for years, Hannibal. 🙂 Only worker associations and unions have gained those. Democratically, I might add. The ‘rights’ of the individual … any business is allowed to close for any particular holiday. Up to them.
          Except for ‘National Days’ noted under law … which it seems many work on anyway. 😉 Another right. 🙂

    2. prophettt Avatar
      prophettt

      Hannibal,
      A secular democratic system is supposed to protect the rights of an atheist as much as a Jew. The whole idea of a secular system is to get ride of the fears you are raising regarding the representation of the people.
      A secular system can help establish a common national identity  instead of the  existing eightenn Lebanese identities .
      Where I live, My representative is a  congressman( happened to be Jewish) who is one of the a strongest supporters of Israel, yet He is doing a great job for his district and for his state. Does it bother me that He supports Israel? Yes, but If I had a representative who supported Palestinian rights,and did a bad job for my district, I would not be happy with him. I might choose t vote for or against him for different reasons than my neighbor,but I can’t deny that He gets re- elected based his domestic stand on issues,which I happened to agree with,than his stand on international issues.I give you this particular  example in order to highlight an extreme case of how secularism and democracy can give reasonable results.
      The jewish community numbers about six million people in america, yet it has the most influence on  US politics and its economy, without the need for a quota. Can’t you imagine the christian community having a similar,if not better role in Lebanon,since it is part of the foundation of the country ? If the Jewish community overcame the demographic issue in america, I’m sure christian can do better in a secular Lebanon,where they can still be part of leading establishments.Unlike the Jewish community in the US, the Christians are as original as the country itself.
      Secularism in a functioning democracy, is a process which will progress as the people choose to. No one is advocating  a system where one group would control the others. At one time, and under a sectarian system,The Phalange and the liberal parties had members of Shiia,  Sunnis and Druze;can you imagine under a secular democracy how people would join parties based on their ideas instead of their sectarian affiliation? Can’t you picture  this scenario?
      The only secular state ,to my knowledge, which is moving toward a religious state is Israel.Its is doing so, because it chooses to be secular and religious state at the same time,and this is impossible to do.Free people will always choose to be more moderate,and less religious .The political structure and the governing system of a state ,usually sets the tone of the public.
      No one can promise you such results in 5 or 10 years,but at least we can hope that the future generation can witness and enjoy such results.
      One thing I agree with you on, is your suggestion of step by step progress,but not just baby steps. Any reforms has to start with separation of state and religion,and with a modern electoral system where representatives are distributed equally and fairly based on  equal number of voters per district. I would recommend keeping the position of the president with the Christians, at least  for a transitional  period 
      I could careless if my representative was a Maronite if He were to work hard for me and my  district. I know that some of the representatives in south are worthless,and they are more of a burden to the treasury .
      I’m sure you could find many representatives from different districts who are worthless ,regardless of what faith or sect they happened to follow or represent.These people happened to be there because of their sect,and not because of their qualifications.
      What  alternatives do we have? Either a sectarian confederation as we have now,or dividing the country, which is impossible.The first  choice have been a failure from day one, and it got us where we are through many civil wars and hundreds of thousands of victims.The second alternative, is impossible to divide an already small country  into smaller tribal countries. Dividing a failed tiny country would result into many mini failed states.
      Insanity is defined as doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.

      1. Hannibal Avatar

        By the time that “are supposed to…” is even considered there will be no Christians left in the entire Middle East. Give me ONE! JUST ONE country that they haven’t yet been annihilated by Islam and the moslems. Islam needs a total overhaul. It is not a religion of peace and you know it. Wherever they go they cause mayhem even in secular society. Now, being areligious myself, I just worry about a culture (you for instance admire Gibran) that the Christians bring NOT a religious icon or belief. We have seen over and over again that once a secular system is set up, a majority Islamist wins and purge anyone who does not follow even their fellow Moslems who happen to disagree with some shamanic practice. In my opinion, the best system is a secular but federal state where each state govern itself like in Switzerland. If it worked for them, it must work for us. The posts are set on a rotation basis like a wheel (but not a wheel of fortune :P) where each religion can be represented in every post. Secularism can bring us dictatorships (Saddam, Assad, etc…) and democracy brings us Hamas and its likes, and the islamists in EVERY Arab spring revolution. One can never change anything without a major shift in the religions or no religions at all. Even in the U.S. religious people are like cancer eating away at humanity AND religion is in the hearts and minds of the majority of Middle Easterns. How about taking a look at what religion bring to a secular state?
        Here it is… It’s fun to watch:

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JezujGUWFW0&list=FLd0KtP7thjUpwuDTWJT_VJg&index=2&feature=plpp_video

        1. Ghassan Karam Avatar
          Ghassan Karam

          Hannibal
                      This clip shows the danger of fundementalismof any kind. These misguided youth could have been Christian fundementalist or Jewish Orthodox or Hindu radicals.

        2. 5thDrawer Avatar
          5thDrawer

          (below) Yes Gassan … and a total lack of the concept, or allowance of, freedom of speech. If you don’t like what someone says, walk away. Beating them to death is not required, and only admired by the megalomaniacs.

        3. $21082311 Avatar

          Boy this is the hatred talk that we need less of if we ever dream of resolving our regional problems! The way you refer to Muslims and Islam is narrow minded and contradicts what you say about being nonreligious yourself. You are only looking at extremists and judging whole populations by the deeds of some lunatics. It is the act and policies that you should condemn not the faith. Every religious group includes criminals and idiots. I am Christian by birth and I don’t share your feeling of fear and panic that Muslims want to take over and if they do they will throw us in the ocean. Not all Muslims are ignorant and criminals. Majority are decent and smart and fit to govern and do good things. Whatever religious crap people chose to follow, it is their personal choice, it doesn’t automatically make them this or that, there is no superior religion over the other. I challenge you for your next post to look up and share a video on something good that a ‘Muslim’ did and helps restore your and others’ trust. What we need is solid laws and judicial systems that protect civilians regardless of their religious affiliation. What we need is impartial and competent leadership, we do not need feeding into negative propaganda that some media is already doing enough of.

        4. Hannibal Avatar

          @Dani38:disqus Dani38 for president… Are you trying to impress some Moslem gf of yours? or maybe bf? However, I am confused where did you see panic or fear in my post? Besides I did not single out Islam as I believe all religions are the same “crapety” crap Mr. Self-Righteous.

    3. 5thDrawer Avatar
      5thDrawer

      And that’s one of the many ‘anti-woman’ issues.

  6. Ghassan,
    How will you guarantee that one “group” of people does not control everything just because it holds a religious majority? Secondly, does a secular system in the Middle East drive the demographics in a sense that for the Christians to have a representation they must too reproduce like rabbits? I do not believe, that being a Buddhist, or an atheist one has a chance to become anything in a secular Lebanon as the mind has to change before the system and do believe that minds should be changed by reforming our religions before reforming the political system. That being said, a baby step approach may be best. Like starting with gender discrimination issues, as I know thousands living in Lebanon without an ID just because their Lebanese mothers married non-Lebanese.

    1. Hannibal,
                  It would be foolish to think that a shift to secularization will not encounter problems and as you might expect I cannot deal with the minutia in a 100o word post. The fundamental issue though is the absolute need to adopt a secular system. You ask what is there to guarantee that one group will not dominate over others? My answer to that question is simply let anyone be elected if they are qualified and if they have a popular base? Do you think that I really care whether my representative is a Quaker or a Shia? Let us assume that  80% of the MP turn out to be Moslems, what is wrong about that?  What is important in a democracy is to offer protection to all citizens and then let the voters chose. At times they will be biased and at others they will be progressive. That is what is unique about democracy. You can have a regime change whenever you go to the ballot box. But the real reason for the above post is the constant meddling by men of the cloth in political affairs, an area that they are not qualified to deal with. Why bother to elect a Parliament if the real power rests with unelected clergy?

      1. Let us assume that 80% of the MPs are Moslems and they vote to terminate Easter being a holiday. What does a minority Christian to do? In the West for example, Moslems will never have “Mohammed’s birthday” a holiday until such time they have enough numbers to vote it in. So in a secular country should we eliminate all religious holidays? (Just thinking out loud) 😉

        1. Hannibal,
                       In a vibrant Democracy the rights of minorities are protected.  I have no objection if all religious holidays are eliminated on the national level. Christmas and New Year are not truly Christian Holidays anyway, they are the winter solistice and Easter is the begining of spring and rebirth. BTW, I believe that Moslems do get days off on the major Islamic events in the US. They do not need to be of any special number.

        2.  Avatar
          Anonymous

          Big Business has worked against holidays for years, Hannibal. 🙂 Only worker associations and unions have gained those. Democratically, I might add. The ‘rights’ of the individual … any business is allowed to close for any particular holiday. Up to them.
          Except for ‘National Days’ noted under law … which it seems many work on anyway. 😉 Another right. 🙂

    2.  Avatar
      Anonymous

      Hannibal,
      A secular democratic system is supposed to protect the rights of an atheist as much as a Jew. The whole idea of a secular system is to get ride of the fears you are raising regarding the representation of the people.
      A secular system can help establish a common national identity  instead of the  existing eightenn Lebanese identities .
      Where I live, My representative is a  congressman9who happened to be Jewish) who happened to be a big supporter of Israel, yet He is doing a great job for his own district and for his state. Does it bother me that He supports Israel? Yes, but If I had a representative who supported Palestinian rights,and did a bad job for my district, I would not be happy with him. I tell you this  example to highlight the extreme example of secularism and democracy.
      The jewish community numbers about six million people in america, yet it has the most influence on  US politics and its economy, without the need for a quota. Can’t you imagine the christian community having a similar role in Lebanon ? If the Jewish community overcame the demographic issue in america, I’m sure christian can do better in a secular Lebanon. 
      Secularism is a process which will progress as the people choose to. No one is advocating  a system where one group would control the others. At one time, and under a sectarian system,The Phalange and the liberal parties had members of Shiia,  Sunnis and Druze;can you imagine under a secular democracy how people would join parties based on their ideas instead of their sectarian affiliation? Can’t you picture  this scenario?
      No one can promise you such results in 5 or 10 years,but at least we can hope that the future generation can witness and enjoy such results.
      One thing I agree with you on is your suggestion of step by step progress,but not just baby steps. Any reforms has to start with separation of state and religion,and a modern electoral system where representatives are distributed equally and fairly based on  equal number of voters per district. I would recommend keeping the position of the president with the Christians, at least  for a transitional  period 
      I could careless if my representative was a Maronite if He were to work hard for me and my  district. I know that some of the representatives in south are worthless,and they are more of a burden to the treasury .
      I’m sure you could find many representatives from different districts who are worthless ,regardless of what faith or sect they happened to follow or represent.These people happened to be there because of their sect,and not because of their qualifications.
      What  alternatives do we have? Either a sectarian confederation as we have now,or dividing the country, which is impossible.The first  choice have been a failure from day one, and it got us where we are through many civil wars and hundreds of thousands of victims.The second alternative, is impossible to divide an already small country  into smaller tribal countries. Dividing a failed tiny country would result into many mini failed states.
      Insanity is defined as doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.

      1. By the time that “are supposed to…” is even considered there will be no Christians left in the entire Middle East. Give me ONE! JUST ONE country that they haven’t yet been annihilated by Islam and the moslems. Islam needs a total overhaul. It is not a religion of peace and you know it. Wherever they go they cause mayhem even in secular society. Now, being areligious myself, I just worry about a culture (you for instance admire Gibran) that the Christians bring NOT a religious icon or belief. We have seen over and over again that once a secular system is set up, a majority Islamist wins and purge anyone who does not follow even their fellow Moslems who happen to disagree with some shamanic practice. In my opinion, the best system is a secular but federal state where each state govern itself like in Switzerland. If it worked for them, it must work for us. The posts are set on a rotation basis like a wheel (but not a wheel of fortune :P) where each religion can be represented in every post. Secularism can bring us dictatorships (Saddam, Assad, etc…) and democracy brings us Hamas and its likes, and the islamists in EVERY Arab spring revolution. One can never change anything without a major shift in the religions or no religions at all. Even in the U.S. religious people are like cancer eating away at humanity AND religion is in the hearts and minds of the majority of Middle Easterns. How about taking a look at what religion bring to a secular state?
        Here it is… It’s fun to watch:

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JezujGUWFW0&list=FLd0KtP7thjUpwuDTWJT_VJg&index=2&feature=plpp_video

        1. Hannibal
                      This clip shows the danger of fundementalismof any kind. These misguided youth could have been Christian fundementalist or Jewish Orthodox or Hindu radicals.

        2.  Avatar
          Anonymous

          (below) Yes Gassan … and a total lack of the concept, or allowance of, freedom of speech. If you don’t like what someones says, walk away. Beating them to death is not required, and only admired by the megalomaniacs.

        3.  Avatar

          Boy this is the hatred talk that we need less of if we ever dream of resolving our regional problems! The way you refer to Muslims and Islam is narrow minded and contradicts what you say about being nonreligious yourself. You are only looking at extremists and judging whole populations by the deeds of some lunatics. It is the act and policies that you should condemn not the faith. Every religious group includes criminals and idiots. I am Christian by birth and I don’t share your feeling of fear and panic that Muslims want to take over and if they do they will throw us in the ocean. Not all Muslims are ignorant and criminals. Majority are decent and smart and fit to govern and do good things. Whatever religious crap people chose to follow, it is their personal choice, it doesn’t automatically make them this or that, there is no superior religion over the other. I challenge you for your next post to look up and share a video on something good that a ‘Muslim’ did and helps restore your and others’ trust. What we need is solid laws and judicial systems that protect civilians regardless of their religious affiliation. What we need is impartial and competent leadership, we do not need feeding into negative propaganda that some media is already doing enough of.

        4.  Avatar

          Boy this is the hatred talk that we need less of if we ever dream of resolving our regional problems! The way you refer to Muslims and Islam is narrow minded and contradicts what you say about being nonreligious yourself. You are only looking at extremists and judging whole populations by the deeds of some lunatics. It is the act and policies that you should condemn not the faith. Every religious group includes criminals and idiots. I am Christian by birth and I don’t share your feeling of fear and panic that Muslims want to take over and if they do they will throw us in the ocean. Not all Muslims are ignorant and criminals. Majority are decent and smart and fit to govern and do good things. Whatever religious crap people chose to follow, it is their personal choice, it doesn’t automatically make them this or that, there is no superior religion over the other. I challenge you for your next post to look up and share a video on something good that a ‘Muslim’ did and helps restore your and others’ trust. What we need is solid laws and judicial systems that protect civilians regardless of their religious affiliation. What we need is impartial and competent leadership, we do not need feeding into negative propaganda that some media is already doing enough of.

        5. @Dani38:disqus Dani38 for president… Are you trying to impress some Moslem gf of yours? or maybe bf? However, I am confused where did you see panic or fear in my post? Besides I did not single out Islam as I believe all religions are the same “crapety” crap Mr. Self-Righteous.

    3.  Avatar
      Anonymous

      And that’s one of the many ‘anti-woman’ issues.

  7. Ghassan,
    How will you guarantee that one “group” of people does not control everything just because it holds a religious majority? Secondly, does a secular system in the Middle East drive the demographics in a sense that for the Christians to have a representation they must too reproduce like rabbits? I do not believe, that being a Buddhist, or an atheist one has a chance to become anything in a secular Lebanon as the mind has to change before the system and do believe that minds should be changed by reforming our religions before reforming the political system. That being said, a baby step approach may be best. Like starting with gender discrimination issues, as I know thousands living in Lebanon without an ID just because their Lebanese mothers married non-Lebanese.

  8. guss043 Avatar

    It will not work because the 2 religions are total opposite , is like mixing water and oil , the Moslem coexisted much better with the Jews as their religion is closer to Judaism plus adding the fact that Jew and Moslem share the same father , the Moroccan and Yemeni Jews prospered and still living in great condition in Morocco much better than Christians , Both Jews and Moslem believe that God  gave them authority to kill in his name and  best is this The Muslims are  not happy!

    They’re not happy in Gaza  .
    They’re not happy in Egypt .
    They’re not happy  in Libya .
    They’re not happy in Morocco .
    They’re  not happy in Iran .
    They’re not happy in Iraq  .
    They’re not happy in Yemen .
    They’re not happy  in Afghanistan .
    They’re not happy in Pakistan  .
    They’re not happy in Syria .
    They’re not happy  in Lebanon .

    So, where are they  happy?

    They’re happy in Australia  ..
    They’re happy in England .
    They’re happy in  France ..
    They’re happy in Italy .
    They’re happy in  Germany ..
    They’re happy in Sweden .
    They’re happy  in the USA ..
    They’re happy in Canada  .
    They’re happy in Norway  .
    They’re happy in every country that is NOT  Muslim.

    And who do they blame?

    Not  Islam.
    Not their leadership.
    Not  themselves.

    THEY BLAME THE COUNTRIES THEY ARE HAPPY  IN!
    AND THEY WANT TO CHANGE THEM TO BE LIKE THE  COUNTRY
    THEY CAME FROM WHERE THEY WERE  UNHAPPY.

    1. lol, that is so true….

    2. MeYosemite Avatar
      MeYosemite

      Promoting unhappiness? Will sound funny in way, but unhappiness promotes religuous beliefs, anger and cultural self preservation.

  9. guss043 Avatar

    It will not work because the 2 religions are total opposite , is like mixing water and oil , the Moslem coexisted much better with the Jews as their religion is closer to Judaism plus adding the fact that Jew and Moslem share the same father , the Moroccan and Yemeni Jews prospered and still living in great condition in Morocco much better than Christians , Both Jews and Moslem believe that God  gave them authority to kill in his name and  best is this The Muslims are  not happy!

    They’re not happy in Gaza  .
    They’re not happy in Egypt .
    They’re not happy  in Libya .
    They’re not happy in Morocco .
    They’re  not happy in Iran .
    They’re not happy in Iraq  .
    They’re not happy in Yemen .
    They’re not happy  in Afghanistan .
    They’re not happy in Pakistan  .
    They’re not happy in Syria .
    They’re not happy  in Lebanon .

    So, where are they  happy?

    They’re happy in Australia  ..
    They’re happy in England .
    They’re happy in  France ..
    They’re happy in Italy .
    They’re happy in  Germany ..
    They’re happy in Sweden .
    They’re happy  in the USA ..
    They’re happy in Canada  .
    They’re happy in Norway  .
    They’re happy in every country that is NOT  Muslim.

    And who do they blame?

    Not  Islam.
    Not their leadership.
    Not  themselves.

    THEY BLAME THE COUNTRIES THEY ARE HAPPY  IN!
    AND THEY WANT TO CHANGE THEM TO BE LIKE THE  COUNTRY
    THEY CAME FROM WHERE THEY WERE  UNHAPPY.

    1.  Avatar
      Anonymous

      lol, that is so true….

    2.  Avatar
      Anonymous

      Promoting unhappiness? Will sound funny in way, but unhappiness promotes religuous beliefs, anger and cultural self preservation.

  10. antar2011 Avatar
    antar2011

    i have learnt more about secularism from an arab person point of view and i have to admit it changed my mind a little bit.

    i have learnt that secularism does not come as a package, one can pick and choose from it what suits his siuation/culture/environment most. so applyig secularism in lebanon does nto necessarily mean it has to be the same as europe/australia/USA etc.

    that was initially my objection to secularism…but since we can pick and choose from it then i have to say that it is the best alternative for lebanon atm.

    it is interesting to note that before the civil war, religious leaders had no say whatsoever with politics…their opinion did not matter at all in political decision making…. a vast contrast to our situation now eh?

    1. 5thDrawer Avatar
      5thDrawer

      But Antar .. when the ‘Supremes’ think they (and therefore ‘religion’) should control every aspect of your life including how business is done by a government, and hold up the individual freedoms of democratic societies as the work of the devil, and uneducated masses actually believe that, then the chances for beneficial change here are very slim.
      The Maronites – trying to keep people from fleeing the country generally – are also reacting in a form of defence, but again with that ‘religious need’ as being foremost. Half-and-half government, when demography is not, is unrealistic. 
      The lack of true democracy in this is the same as the Syrians rail against … 10%  Alawites control there …. and how people bow down to that group is more important than good living for the masses. Hezzbolla wants the same thing in Lebanon.
      They are all idiots …. and the people suffer under them.

      1. antar2011 Avatar
        antar2011

        God forbids…none of these religious leaders are supremes….at least with the sunni sheikhs, their followers don’t see them as supreme…
        following religion per say does not hold up individual freedom nor democratic society…at least i know that it won’t under shariah…

        i really think that these religious leaders are disfunctional is because of the ruins of the civil war still exist in many of their minds….each one of them thinks they are representative of their sect and so protector and each one of them plays on the fears of his community.. and nothing…absolutely nothing can work if we do not get over this hurdle.

        if a sect/community is a minority in lebanon does not mean they are automatically are going to be attacked/marganilised from the majority…..religion certainly does not say that…islam anyway does not say that…..

        but again who is applying what the religious text he follows properly?

        secularism custom made to our own environment/culture may be an option as a solution for lebanon’s ills but again if this fear is preexistent in our nafs then i feel that nothing will work.

      2. master09 Avatar

        An Iranian court has said it will delay a final verdict on the case of imprisoned Christian pastor Youcef Nadarkhani for a year.
        Previous reports said that Nadarkhani’s case – he’s accused of leaving Islam and could be sentenced to death – would be decided in mid-December by Iran’s supreme leader, Ayatollah Sayyed Khameini.

        Religion has always been part of politics in the ME and this is how they are trying to make it with the Arab Spring.
        So what will become of the minority when Riligion is LAW across the whole  ME……? This is fact and part of what the LEADERS want in the ME than how do you protect the Minority.

        So we can pray and hope and wish and try to make it work that all people black and white Muslim and Christian live happy together and walk together work for peace together is just that a dream.

        You can not have change and move in the rite direction when one side is RITE and the other is WRONG.
        We will keep moving in opp direction and blame each other.
         
        So yes we all have THIS ‘ I HAVE A DREAM’  speech but fact and reality is not a DREAM.
         Lebanon is heading in this direction as well.
             

              

         

        1. 5thDrawer Avatar

          Enforced ‘religion’ will take us back into the Dark Ages … with the exception of the wonderful modern weapons they wish to use for enforcement.

      3. master09 Avatar

        An Iranian court has said it will delay a final verdict on the case of imprisoned Christian pastor Youcef Nadarkhani for a year.
        Previous reports said that Nadarkhani’s case – he’s accused of leaving Islam and could be sentenced to death – would be decided in mid-December by Iran’s supreme leader, Ayatollah Sayyed Khameini.

        Religion has always been part of politics in the ME and this is how they are trying to make it with the Arab Spring.
        So what will become of the minority when Riligion is LAW across the whole  ME……? This is fact and part of what the LEADERS want in the ME than how do you protect the Minority.

        So we can pray and hope and wish and try to make it work that all people black and white Muslim and Christian live happy together and walk together work for peace together is just that a dream.

        You can not have change and move in the rite direction when one side is RITE and the other is WRONG.
        We will keep moving in opp direction and blame each other.
         
        So yes we all have THIS ‘ I HAVE A DREAM’  speech but fact and reality is not a DREAM.
         Lebanon is heading in this direction as well.
             

              

         

  11.  Avatar
    Anonymous

    i have learnt more about secularism from an arab person point of view and i have to admit it changed my mind a little bit.

    i have learnt that secularism does not come as a package, one can pick and choose from it what suits his siuation/culture/environment most. so applyig secularism in lebanon does nto necessarily mean it has to be the same as europe/australia/USA etc.

    that was initially my objection to secularism…but since we can pick and choose from it then i have to say that it is the best alternative for lebanon atm.

    it is interesting to note that before the civil war, religious leaders had no say whatsoever with politics…their opinion did not matter at all in political decision making…. a vast contrast to our situation now eh?

    1.  Avatar
      Anonymous

      But Antar .. when the ‘Supremes’ think they (and therefore ‘religion’) should control every aspect of your life including how business is done by a government, and hold up the individual freedoms of democratic societies as the work of the devil, and uneducated masses actually believe that, then the chances for beneficial change here are very slim.
      The Maronites – trying to keep people from fleeing the country generally – are also reacting in a form of defence, but again with that ‘religious need’ as being foremost. Half-and-half government, when demography is not, is unrealistic. 
      The lack of true democracy in this is the same as the Syrians rail against … 10%  Alawites control there …. and how people bow down to that group is more important than good living for the masses. Hezzbolla wants the same thing in Lebanon.
      They are all idiots …. and the people suffer under them.

      1.  Avatar
        Anonymous

        God forbids…none of these religious leaders are supremes….at least with the sunni sheikhs, their followers don’t see them as supreme…
        following religion per say does not hold up individual freedom nor democratic society…at least i know that it won’t under shariah…

        i really think that these religious leaders are disfunctional is because of the ruins of the civil war still exist in many of their minds….each one of them thinks they are representative of their sect and so protector and each one of them plays on the fears of his community.. and nothing…absolutely nothing can work if we do not get over this hurdle.

        if a sect/community is a minority in lebanon does not mean they are automatically are going to be attacked/marganilised from the majority…..religion certainly does not say that…islam anyway does not say that…..

        but again who is applying what the religious text he follows properly?

        secularism custom made to our own environment/culture may be an option as a solution for lebanon’s ills but again if this fear is preexistent in our nafs then i feel that nothing will work.

      2.  Avatar
        Anonymous

        An Iranian court has said it will delay a final verdict on the case of imprisoned Christian pastor Youcef Nadarkhani for a year.
        Previous reports said that Nadarkhani’s case – he’s accused of leaving Islam and could be sentenced to death – would be decided in mid-December by Iran’s supreme leader, Ayatollah Sayyed Khameini.

        Religion has always been part of politics in the ME and this is how they are trying to make it with the Arab Spring.
        So what will become of the minority when Riligion is LAW across the whole  ME……? This is fact and part of what the LEADERS want in the ME than how do you protect the Minority.

        So we can pray and hope and wish and try to make it work that all people black and white Muslim and Christian live happy together and walk together work for peace together is just that a dream.

        You can not have change and move in the rite direction when one side is RITE and the other is WRONG.
        We will keep moving in opp direction and blame each other.
         
        So yes we all have THIS ‘ I HAVE A DREAM’  speech but fact and reality is not a DREAM.
         Lebanon is heading in this direction as well.
             

              

         

        1.  Avatar

          Enforced ‘religion’ will take us back into the Dark Ages … with the exception of the wonderful modern weapons they wish to use for enforcement.

  12. persepoliswarrior Avatar
    persepoliswarrior

    Secularism is a good way the crisis in Middle East can be resolved but there are too many fundamentalists who want to impose their interpretation of religion on all the people.  Secular Democracy sounds like a good idea but what happens when one group who has a demographic advantage votes only their own people into government and then their own people pass legislation that oppresses others and gives them more power.  I hate to say it, but Lebanon’s confessional system protects the representation and rights of each sect. As long as this system is not abused, it can work fine.  But the reason sectarian strife is high in Lebanon is due to the fact that one specific religious sect (you all know who) has more power in politics because they have arms that they could use against other Lebanese if they do not have their way. Lebanon would have more unity if only the army possessed the right to defend the state since the army represents ALL religious sects in Lebanon!!  The army is not sectarian based?  Aren’t there Shias, Maronites, Sunnis, Orthodox, Druze, etc, all in the army? The moment you have one religious group with its own militia, the political system is abused and the army has no purpose of creating unity; in the end, it just matters who has the most arms and is militarily capable of exerting its influence on the country.

    Secularism is what we need back in Iran.  Prior to 1979, the Shah did an excellent job in reducing the influence of the Shia clergy and creating more nationalist pride as opposed to religious. Under the Pahlavi dynasty, Iran had a strong Islamic identity but our nationalism is what united us during this time.  We had more nationalism due to secularism.  We were all IRANIANS!! We did not refer to ourselves by religion or ethnicity.     Although 89% of our nation belongs to the same religious sect, the Shah’s government protected the rights of all minorities.  The reason the Shah lost power was due to the lack of political freedoms.  This sparked anti-Shah fervor.  The loss of secularism has torn Iranian society because minorities are mistreated under this current regime.   Secularism protected the rights of all Iranians and allowed us to choose how we wanted to live our lives.  We could express our culture in our own ways.  A religious clergy should not be allowed have political power because it threatens the framework of the country. 

    My future vision for Iran is a secular constitution and a democracy.  We also need a secular military that operates in cooperation with the elected government, but NOT under the government.  This way, if elected representatives tried to do something radical that threatened the secular nature of the country and violated the secular principles of the constitution, there could be a military coup that would protect the country’s secularism which would safeguard the rights of the people.

  13.  Avatar
    Anonymous

    Secularism is a good way the crisis in Middle East can be resolved but there are too many fundamentalists who want to impose their interpretation of religion on all the people.  Secular Democracy sounds like a good idea but what happens when one group who has a demographic advantage votes only their own people into government and then their own people pass legislation that oppresses others and gives them more power.  I hate to say it, but Lebanon’s confessional system protects the representation and rights of each sect. As long as this system is not abused, it can work fine.  But the reason sectarian strife is high in Lebanon is due to the fact that one specific religious sect (you all know who) has more power in politics because they have arms that they could use against other Lebanese if they do not have their way. Lebanon would have more unity if only the army possessed the right to defend the state since the army represents ALL religious sects in Lebanon!!  The army is not sectarian based?  Aren’t there Shias, Maronites, Sunnis, Orthodox, Druze, etc, all in the army? The moment you have one religious group with its own militia, the political system is abused and the army has no purpose of creating unity; in the end, it just matters who has the most arms and is militarily capable of exerting its influence on the country.

    Secularism is what we need back in Iran.  Prior to 1979, the Shah did an excellent job in reducing the influence of the Shia clergy and creating more nationalist pride as opposed to religious. Under the Pahlavi dynasty, Iran had a strong Islamic identity but our nationalism is what united us during this time.  We had more nationalism due to secularism.  We were all IRANIANS!! We did not refer to ourselves by religion or ethnicity.     Although 89% of our nation belongs to the same religious sect, the Shah’s government protected the rights of all minorities.  The reason the Shah lost power was due to the lack of political freedoms.  This sparked anti-Shah fervor.  The loss of secularism has torn Iranian society because minorities are mistreated under this current regime.   Secularism protected the rights of all Iranians and allowed us to choose how we wanted to live our lives.  We could express our culture in our own ways.  A religious clergy should not be allowed have political power because it threatens the framework of the country. 

    My future vision for Iran is a secular constitution and a democracy.  We also need a secular military that operates in cooperation with the elected government, but NOT under the government.  This way, if elected representatives tried to do something radical that threatened the secular nature of the country and violated the secular principles of the constitution, there could be a military coup that would protect the country’s secularism which would safeguard the rights of the people.

  14. Sebouh80 Avatar

    The truth is that the role of religious leaders in Lebanon has always been to “divide and rule” over the masses, and one of the primary reasons as to why this is the case. The simple reason is that if we go back to the constitution under article 24 that mandates the distribution of offices on the basis of confessionalism which has become part of the so called national pact of 1943 that had officially institutionalized Lebanon into a sectarian state. Moreover, the political divisions into sects has given the religious leaders the carte blanche to interfere in the political domain.

    Finally, as of this writing there has not been any serious attempt to challenge this undemocratic system due to deep internal divisions in the Lebanese society.

  15.  Avatar
    Anonymous

    The truth is that the role of religious leaders in Lebanon has always been to “divide and rule” over the masses, and one of the primary reasons as to why this is the case. The simple reason is that if we go back to the constitution under article 24 that mandates the distribution of offices on the basis of confessionalism which has become part of the so called national pact of 1943 that had officially institutionalized Lebanon into a sectarian state. Moreover, the political divisions into sects has given the religious leaders the carte blanche to interfere in the political domain.

    Finally, as of this writing there has not been any serious attempt to challenge this undemocratic system due to deep internal divisions in the Lebanese society.

  16. LEBANON101 Avatar
    LEBANON101

    if we are going to have a secular system in lebanon . all lebanese outside of lebanon should be allowed to vote

    1. 5thDrawer Avatar

      Mostly because they are always sending money back to feed&fix relatives from peaceful, profitable countries.

  17.  Avatar

    if we are going to have a secular system in lebanon . all lebanese outside of lebanon should be allowed to vote

    1.  Avatar

      Mostly because they are always sending money back to feed&fix relatives from peaceful, profitable countries.

  18. Hannibal Avatar

    Why do religious leaders dress in medieval attire? Halloween is over… Who’s got the best looking hat? Let’s do a poll: I vote for the red propeller hat although the white donut shaped hat would have been my choice if I were hungry…

  19. Why do religious leaders dress in medieval attire? Halloween is over… Who’s got the best looking hat? Let’s do a poll: I vote for the red propeller hat although the white donut shaped hat would have been my choice if I were hungry…

  20. Why do religious leaders dress in medieval attire? Halloween is over… Who’s got the best looking hat? Let’s do a poll: I vote for the red propeller hat although the white donut shaped hat would have been my choice if I were hungry…

  21. jahn jahn Avatar

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  23. jahn jahn Avatar

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  24. jahn jahn Avatar

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