Ya Libnan

Rai, Sarkozy to discuss ways to protect Lebanon, Syria Christians

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Maronite Patriarch Mar Bishara Boutros al Rai , who traveled to France to meet with President Nicolas Sarkozy and French officials took with him a study on the situation of Christians in Lebanon that includes 5 items, all relating to the protection of Christians in Lebanon and the reflection of the crisis in Syria on the Christians of Lebanon and Syria, Al Diyar newspaper reported.

According to Al Diyar the fifth item that the Patriarch will be discussing with Sarkozy is the so called “most difficult option” and this option calls for the survival of Lebanon under a federation that will provide the Christians with the privacy and security needed for their future survival

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99 responses to “Rai, Sarkozy to discuss ways to protect Lebanon, Syria Christians”

  1. Darw101 Avatar
    Darw101

    The patriarch is worried about the situation in the region and the prevailing sentiments against minorities, notably christians in places like Egypt and Iraq that could spread to Syria and eventually affect Lebanon. The region’s upheaval is a mess and its ultimate impact is unpredictable.

  2. Avatar
    Anonymous

    The patriarch is worried about the situation in the region and the prevailing sentiments against minorities, notably christians in places like Egypt and Iraq that could spread to Syria and eventually affect Lebanon. The region’s upheaval is a mess and its ultimate impact is unpredictable.

  3. leobetapar Avatar
    leobetapar

    the federation will be UMA union of the monotheisme arabs with Iran Irak Syrie and Libanon God is very great

    1. kamille1 Avatar
      kamille1

      that sounds great except it will be a federation including lebanon but minus what it used to be called the free areas of lebanon..this is a dream of yours that will never happen..when it comes down to it, we will carry guns and defend ourselves, remember??????

    2. 7akibalash Avatar
      7akibalash

      iran(the regime and all that follow)’s destruction and humiliation is coming within this decade, hold your breath when obummer vacates the office.

    3. Leborigine Avatar
      Leborigine

      I thought UMA stood for Uneducated Mutherf&^$%n Ahl-shitty/Arabs, which is what you are always carrying on about!

      1. leobetapar Avatar
        leobetapar

        buy some grey matter so you will be able to debate.You are stuck in insult way i feel sorry for you

        1. master09 Avatar
          master09

          Hi Leo why are you not giving me an education I am still waiting, my time is yours. 

        2. master09 Avatar
          master09

          Hi Leo why are you not giving me an education I am still waiting, my time is yours. 

    4. Leborigine Avatar
      Leborigine

      I thought UMA stood for Uneducated Mutherf&^$%n Ahl-shitty/Arabs, which is what you are always carrying on about!

  4. Avatar
    Anonymous

    the federation will be UMA union of the monotheisme arabs with Iran Irak Syrie and Libanon God is very great

    1. Avatar
      Anonymous

      that sounds great except it will be a federation including lebanon but minus what it used to be called the free areas of lebanon..this is a dream of yours that will never happen..when it comes down to it, we will carry guns and defend ourselves, remember??????

    2. Avatar
      Anonymous

      iran(the regime and all that follow)’s destruction and humiliation is coming within this decade, hold your breath when obummer vacates the office.

    3. Avatar
      Anonymous

      I thought UMA stood for Uneducated Mutherf&^$%n Ahl-shitty/Arabs, which is what you are always carrying on about!

      1. Avatar
        Anonymous

        buy some grey matter so you will be able to debate.You are stuck in insult way i feel sorry for you

        1. Avatar
          Anonymous

          Hi Leo why are you not giving me an education I am still waiting, my time is yours. 

    4. Avatar
      Anonymous

      I thought UMA stood for Uneducated Mutherf&^$%n Ahl-shitty/Arabs, which is what you are always carrying on about!

  5. guss043 Avatar
    guss043

    There is always hope for the Cristian to regain some of the power they have lost in the past , they lost it ,mainly because of their divisions and stupidity,culminating with the mother of all stupid who made the Christian lose their power no other than the hungry of power the street guy named Aoun .There is hope because we are still in the country , the Jews had to buy their way in after they left 2000 years ago, for us as long we are still in we can remain in .
    Not sure if the church can play the role or we need smart leader (s) and institutions , we need to stop first selling the lands that we have control ,as we know the Shiites are stealing our lands where we have no control like Bekaa and Baalbeck and other , and ,shiites ,sunnis and aran moslem nations are trying to buy lands in the heart of Christian lands, Not all the intention of buyout is to possess the christians lands , some are simply for investment or in other cases ,sunnis who are running away fom the invasion of the sgiites in west Beirut.,but there is many that they are intentional from sunnis and shiites combined ,Selling lands is the last battle that the christian can’t afford to lose , one we sell it we can’t return
    The christian church with all confessions have to stop first selling the land they own before preaching others, Harissa mountain became a shamful mountain with more than 1/2 sold or given for 99 years investment,
    The Orthdodox church could have avoided the building of the Great Mosque in downtown Beirut by the late PM  Hariri ,( I have nothing gainst the mosque except it is not proportionally built considering the size of buildings around it ) if they listen to the owner of the land ( it was ahwet izaz until 1975) who is orthodox when he run to his Orthodox church telling them that Hariri is offering him 10 time the price , but he wanted to sell it to the church , but they turned him down as they say for now they don’t know what to do with it , and so on many stories.
    The Christian have to work hard to regain their power and opportunity will be back soon as Hizbollah is doomed to be weakened after the fall of Syria and the strife will take long and will enable the Christan to recover,
    The Maronite have to open their small mind that they use to have before the 1975 and consider other confessions if they want to exist and open their door to the Iraqis /Syrian .and any Christian who like to be in Lebanon and facilitate their stay ,that’s one hope to gain numbers as the immigrants hope to come back to such mess and leave their jobs and fortune will not be easy .
    I could keep on going and go back to history and what happened and all the mess , but it does not make sense,
    The greed of the maronite after the independence and their love of the money and power and their stupidity to leave their land to the city from areas like the  chouf and other areas ,and their divisions brought us to here, just let them look at their partners in the country the Moslem Shiites and Sunnites with all their divisions they never reached a stage Like the Maronite Aoun and Geagea ( Aoun to blame much more) to kill each other and cause over 200,000 Christians to immigrate in 1990 and to lose their powers and we are not in better situation except the same partied they don’t have arms to kill each other with whatever is left from old men living there
    Elias Sarkis revealed to one man I know ( and all the churches were notified about the meeting)  that the Moslem nations secretly met in Karachi in 1980 and decided by the year 2020 they shouldn’t be any Christians in the middle east , and the plan is going well so farm , the meeting was led by the sneaky Saudi Arabia who fund fanatic Islams in Egypt ( all the attack on christians in Egypt are led by Schools that are funded by Saudi Arabia , they study in books that refer to Christians as Kouffar ) , Pakistan, Afghanistan and all over the west   , 9/11 was excuted by Saudi Citizens mainly .
    The Chritians church shouldnt look at Hizbollah as the danger , as the Sunni are far more dangerous , just watching the moufti Kabbani on Future TV during this Rmadan and hithe way he hit on Christians all the time by referring to them as Kouffar and Mouheebin lel Khmmra even when Beirut bars are mianly filled with Sunni men and girls (like Skyline and Beirut night theatre ) shows how hypocrites the Sunni they are , they want the Christians to b in the front fighting the Shiite and them later getting the results and the fruit as they did in 1975 , they were the cause of the civil war with their dreams to take Lebanon power to them ( and they did) using the Shiite the PLO to achieve that ,splitting the army , without having one Sunni fighting in the street , and after they get the Taef and take the power of the president,
    Christian shouldnt side with anyone as after Syria is over the Sunni will not spare the Shiite neither the Chritians

    1. geo metro Avatar
      geo metro

      guss thanks for your insight and prespective,
      the context of your comments is a representation and proof of how dividing   the  religious  brands are in seeking their own intrest and superiority over one another.

      the question  i pose if we are all trying to date the same  pure and rightous god  wouldnt the results be different?
      in 1981 a very respected friend said to me “if you really believed that  god existed you would live your life completely differently”
      further he went on to say that it that it is impossible to love god or any one unless you get to know them intimately.  

      for the most part the groups  you describe in your comments are largely  a representation of  a feel good religion and not god knowing or loving servants thus explaining the horrible results of intent to harm , kill, and domination of fellow humans.

      no doubt there is a lot of effort to gain and control land as you mentioned in  your comment and no  doubt it is not fashionable for people like me to bring god in the mix but i feel that my comment and prespective is relavent and admissable as long as all the factions operate in the premis of religious god serving   sect.

    2. geo metro Avatar
      geo metro

      guss thanks for your insight and prespective,
      the context of your comments is a representation and proof of how dividing   the  religious  brands are in seeking their own intrest and superiority over one another.

      the question  i pose if we are all trying to date the same  pure and rightous god  wouldnt the results be different?
      in 1981 a very respected friend said to me “if you really believed that  god existed you would live your life completely differently”
      further he went on to say that it that it is impossible to love god or any one unless you get to know them intimately.  

      for the most part the groups  you describe in your comments are largely  a representation of  a feel good religion and not god knowing or loving servants thus explaining the horrible results of intent to harm , kill, and domination of fellow humans.

      no doubt there is a lot of effort to gain and control land as you mentioned in  your comment and no  doubt it is not fashionable for people like me to bring god in the mix but i feel that my comment and prespective is relavent and admissable as long as all the factions operate in the premis of religious god serving   sect.

    3. Beiruti Avatar
      Beiruti

      Excellent Insight.

    4. PROPHET.T Avatar
      PROPHET.T

      Guss,
      A well thought comment. Many good questions points were raised, but  few of them can be answered.
      I agree with most of your analyses, but not all of your goals. I  think  the goal  should  be  for  Christians  and  all Muslims  to  start  thinking   of  Lebanon  as  nation  for all Lebanese  instead of  a different  Lebanon  for  different  sect.
      The key here is for an overall reform of our political system as well as our social culture. We  need  to  start   teaching  our  kids  that  they  are Lebanese instead of a Christian  or  Muslim.
      Religion should be a personal matter, not a national matter. Sectarianism is really the cancer of our nation. No one   sect  should think of itself as more  superior to others, And  no  one  sect  should seek  to  dominate  others, or  have  control of  the nation. Lebanon is for all Lebanese, and they should all share power and responsibilities. All Lebanese  should enjoy  same  rights and obligations, with  some consideration  to  the demographic  make  up   in a fair  way  for  a  period of time    until  we reach  a day  where  most  Lebanese identify  more with  their  Lebanese identity  then  their  religious  one.
      People  should have the right  to  pray( or not pray  at all) as they  see  fit , with  no  interference  by others   and with  no restrictions  from the  state as long as  there is no  disrespect to  others  who  choose  to pray in a different  way. Yet a total separation of state and religion should be in place.
      You have raised the issue of land selling and buying few times. I’m in no position to  determine whether  the land  buying in  Christian areas  is  intended  by  some,  to   push  Christians  out  or  not. But  my  answer to  that is for  Christians  to  hold on to  their lands regardless  of  the intentions of  buyers. As far  as   those  who are  buying  land  as  an  investment , I’m sure  joint  investment  ventures  could  be  a  solution to  ease  the fears  you  have  raised.

      I would also keep the Christians of Syria and Iraq where they naturally belong,In Syria and in Iraq. Christians should never have to leave their nation of birth or their historic nations. Iraq and Syria are historically where Christianity flourished, and there is no reason to change history.

      1. Beiruti Avatar
        Beiruti

        Prophet, The Christians in Iraq are being killed. 

        1. PROPHET.T Avatar
          PROPHET.T

          You are  absolutely  right, Beiruti, But removing  them  from  their  natural and  rightful land  is exactly what   the  killers and the  west  want. No  wonder why  killings of  Iraqi Christians  didn’t  start  until  the  united  states occupied  Iraq.
          So according  to  your analogy, Christians of  Egypt  should  be   asked  to leave   because   terrorists  attacked  their  church and  killed  few  of them? If things  get  worse in Syria ,and  some terrorist  organization  starts  killing  Christians, does that  mean  they  should  leave? You  should  not  give in  to those  who  are  killing Christians  in  order  to  push them  out.

        2. master09 Avatar
          master09

          Not just Iraq but many more nations are doing just as bad or worse to the Christians.
            
          Church burnings and physical attacks on Christians have become commonplace.One Pakistani Christian named Arshed Masih died after radical Muslim leaders, backed by police, burned him alive for refusing to convert to Islam while his wife was raped by police officers.  This incident, which took place on March 19th, 2010 is just another example of how horrible things have become for Christians in Pakistan.
           
          *Egypt- church burnings have become a regular thing. 21 people died when a bomb went of outside the church,  about 4000 muslims violently assuaulted Christians and burned thier houses and a church in a town  called SOUL.
           
          * Nigeria-  Angry that Christian President Goodluck Jonathan defeated Muslim candidate Muhammadu Buhari, Islamists in the Shariah-ruled north began rioting on Monday, April 18, 2011, after preliminary results of the April 16 election were announced. Soon newspapers featured grisly photos of charred bodies lining the streets. Hundreds of churches were burned and thousands of Christian-owned businesses destroyed, according to the Christian human rights group, Open Doors. And International Christian Concern reported that the Kaduna-based Civil Rights Congress was still “discovering more details of massacres that have been carried out in the hinterland.” Upwards of 40,000 Christians have been displaced in the past few weeks.
           
          Ethiopia
          In Ethiopia, dozens of churches are being burned.  The international media is reporting that 69 churches in a single Ethiopian city were burned just in the month of March alone.
           
          This is 1% of what is happening around Asia and the Middle east. Muslims have killed thousands of Christians for just being Christians , burn thier church and torture is even a constant hapenning.

      2. geo metro Avatar
        geo metro

        prophet,
        when chrysler  corporation was  almost bankrupt and wiped out   lee iococa  turned  it around in just 2 years and paid back the money borrowed .
         was he qualified to do the job because he was catholic? no!  he was  simply qualified based on his experiece to run the  company.
         qualifying a government based on sect is like going to a dentist  to fix a broken leg. the results of the current system is a total miss and as you pointed out .
        spirituality is a private matter and i dont doubt that spiritualy healthy people can and have coexisted peacefully.

        like you i live in the us and the last thing on my mind is the color or religion of the president, i just want him to do the  job that he was elected  to do.. so i can enjoy a quality life in the  remaining years with my familly and loved ones.

        1. guss043 Avatar
          guss043

          not sure if you are replying to me also, am not talking about Christian to rule or anything, am talking abot their existence as powerful community who are the heart of Lebanon democracy we like it or not

        2. PROPHET.T Avatar
          PROPHET.T

          geo metro,
          Good day,and Thank you  for  translating my thoughts into words that  are  easy to  understand  and relate  to. LOL. You simplified my comments in few lines when I tried hard   in few pages. Yes color , race  and religion  should never  determine  who  leads or  rules  as long as  this person is qualified , fair, and  law abiding person.
          That being said, I was still being considerate to sectarian sensitivities in Lebanese society. Transforming  Lebanese  society into a  secular  one  will take  time  and  effort, and   it  will have to  be done  gradually, but  with  firm  laws and  regulations in  order  for the   average Lebanese to gets  used  to it, and  feels  secure enough.  There is much fear, some justified and some are not, which needs to be eased and addressed.

        3. libnan1 Avatar
          libnan1

          Geo and Prophet,
          Your thinks workes well In a perfect world. Realty is something else.
          First in Lebanon Christians and non Christians don’t always use the same names, so we are always able to identify each other even if IDs don’t mention religion. Second with great respect to my other fellow Lebanese, the Christians will occupy the majority of position in government if qualification is followed. This will cause problems down the road, remember civil war. That is why I believe each sect should have a share in government and then the most qualified person in that sect will occupy that position alocated to his sect.  
          That theory applies in the US as well. If it wasn’t for affirmative action black would have not been included. By setting aside certain contracts for minorities, many employers were forced to look for qualified blacks to fill these positions that otherwise would have been filled by no blacks. Discrimination is still alive in this country as well, again this realty and not fiction. We have work with it.  

        4. 5thDrawer Avatar
          5thDrawer

          The problem with Christians, generally, has become their religion. They believe others have a right to worship as they wish without interference; they are taken in most readily by ‘taquia’ because they wish to believe others see life as they do, with some honesty, so are willing to ‘discuss’ until it kills them, in the often vain hope that some light is being shed for the general betterment of humans; and failing all, they have learned that ‘turning the other cheek’ does not necessarily mean being hit again … one can simply sell, take some losses, and move to a quiet place with a government that actually functions – hopefully at least for their own lifetimes, even if sad they had to leave.
            Fortunately, a generally more enlightened education allows more of them to see the writing on the wall, and they can gradually disappear into the ‘ether’ long before they are turned into refugees being chased out or killed … not that all of them have been successful in the past on that.
            I’m sure the Patriarch knows why he’s losing his flock … but the French who drew a line 60 years ago are no longer listening closely for Lebanon, I fear. They have their own problems with the taquia crowd. 
            Hell .. they even have Leo 🙂

        5. geo metro Avatar
          geo metro

          5th the  problem with many todays christians is that they are not very  familiar with their own teachings ,scriptures and the significant prophecies being fullfilled before their eyes.

          if you give a baby milk for the rest of its life with no solid food he will never fully develop. the same way may christians  never consume solid  spiritual food by digging deep into earlier christian  views and teachings and rely on traditions passed down with no spiritual nutrition needed to help them deal with the world conditions that jesus intimately pointed to  as signs of the times. 

          many dont realize that the majority of the contents of the bible points to the fact that mankind CAN NOT SELF RULE as the break down began in the garden of eden when eve was convinced that by eating the fruit of that specific tree whe would become just like god and not need him to tell her and adam  what they can or can not do.

          well here we are in 2011 and not 1 form of govenment in our whole history ever proved to be fair and just to all people  and chrstians putting hope in any worldly human govenrment only indicates that they are not familiar with the kingdom that jesus spoke about as the only solution for humanity.

          now before i get the 5th degree  for going there,  let me get a head start and put my helmet on before the rocks start flying my way.lol

        6. 5thDrawer Avatar
          5thDrawer

          Hehehe .. won’t see any rocks from me Geo. No 5th degree either … obviously no-one has been able to sort it all out anyway. Why would you or I try? And there are a huge number of interpretations of that hugely popular book, just as there are with the Koran or any other theological ‘explanation’ for us being on the planet. Human notes get scrambled often. But we sure don’t go by those only words of God given to Moses on stone, and nothing has been ‘written in stone’ since.
            From our most recent scientific evidence, it seems it took Him about 2.5 million years to finally decide we had evolved enough ‘smarts’ to understand the writing. Maybe a few centuries later He said ‘oops’.
          ‘We’ don’t know … 
           To Libnan1, I can only state that humans discriminate ALL the time … and this is certainly not an evil thing when it comes to survival as a species. It’s essential. But if we could agree that all humans should be treated by all humans in the same way, perhaps the whole species would see and appreciate what God has at least given us to work with, and only discriminate against human folly.
          Putting theologians in charge of governments does NOT seem a good option – any more.

        7. PROPHET.T Avatar
          PROPHET.T

          libnan1,
           I know the reality of Lebanese society and its rotten political system. I also know that   this sad reality is not engraved on stones.  Societies and countries can change to the better if there is a will. It takes leadership, teachings, and laws.  It  took  laws and  education  to  build a successful  society out of  outlaws and  poor European  immigrants in the  united states. It didn’t happen overnight, nor would any change in Lebanon happen over night.
           
          You seem to have given  up  on any change that would transform us into a better ,civil, secular, and democratic  one, I didn’t  and won’t  give  up  as long  as I  live. I may  not live to fulfill  those  dreams, but I ‘m  hoping  that   people like  you ,geo,  guess and I can  make  a difference in  our   dialogue, and  inspire the  younger  generation  to  carry  the torch and become better  citizens  than  us, and  plant  the seeds  for  a better  country  for themselves and for their children.

        8. libnan1 Avatar
          libnan1

          Prophet,
          I like to have a society in Lebanon similar to we have in the US. The only thing that is keeping the US society this way is the constitution. We don’t have a constitution like the US, we don’t have the courts and we don’t have the enforcement needed. I actually believe that all we need is a one sentence constitution “Thou shall not kill any other citizen based on religious belief” and we will be OK. We just need that to be added to Lebanon school books and be posted on bulletin boards through out the country and signed by religious leaders, not like the latest speech by the Mufti that called other religions Kafereen because they are not Muslims. I know you don’t support him. Believe it or not our religious teachings can be a big help if people apply it and not interpret it the way they want.

          My point was that the civil war started because Muslims felt left out of government and if we are to implement a system based on qualification we will be setting ourselves for another civil war in 20 years or so when the new generation feel left out. In the mean time we should emphasize education for all Lebanese especially the ones that felt disadvantaged before. Frankly we were disadvantaged in Lebanon, we came from a poor family. Education was our only way out of poverty. I strongly believe that education will lift all.   

        9. libnan1 Avatar
          libnan1

          Prophet,
          I like to have a society in Lebanon similar to we have in the US. The only thing that is keeping the US society this way is the constitution. We don’t have a constitution like the US, we don’t have the courts and we don’t have the enforcement needed. I actually believe that all we need is a one sentence constitution “Thou shall not kill any other citizen based on religious belief” and we will be OK. We just need that to be added to Lebanon school books and be posted on bulletin boards through out the country and signed by religious leaders, not like the latest speech by the Mufti that called other religions Kafereen because they are not Muslims. I know you don’t support him. Believe it or not our religious teachings can be a big help if people apply it and not interpret it the way they want.

          My point was that the civil war started because Muslims felt left out of government and if we are to implement a system based on qualification we will be setting ourselves for another civil war in 20 years or so when the new generation feel left out. In the mean time we should emphasize education for all Lebanese especially the ones that felt disadvantaged before. Frankly we were disadvantaged in Lebanon, we came from a poor family. Education was our only way out of poverty. I strongly believe that education will lift all.   

      3. guss043 Avatar
        guss043

        I have no disagreement in what you are  saying and I wish the secular state can be done tomorrow , but as we both know it will not for sometimes , as the church was removed from the power after the french revolution   , the Arab uprising should end up with the same results ( eventually in 25- to 100 years) and eliminate the notion of applying the Shariaa as law.
        Watching the Mufti Kabbani this last Ramadan was a reminder that we are still in Lebanon living in the Mufti,Sheik land     ( am sorry but the Christian bishops don hit on the Moslem religion in public and on TV ) talk and offend the Christian religion bikil wakeha ,he was telling the moslem that is sitting near people drinking in Ramadan  is a sin ( religion is not by showing off ,is by belief , you fast you fast for God, and leave the other alone none of his business ) , hitting on Christian religion several time, as he quoted some book ( Hadith al Nabawi )  where the Christ at the end will bow down to the Prophet and admit that the Islam is the true religion ( As Christian it is very offensive for us such talk .You can’t share the country with Christians and hit on their  religion day and night , the Mufti knows well what he’s doing, he’s pleasing his masses and he’s aligning himself now with the future , with the Syrian revolution that is expected to produce a semi Moslem brotherhood government eventually backed by the Saudis and Turkish and Jordan king.
        You can’t built a country like that , as Christian we are not obliged to hear this non sense ,by being  on TV he’s fueling sentiment about Kouffar and so on, and we know well the hypocrisy of many moslems who drink beyond any Christian (just to go the Bierut clubs ) ,or just now they discover the caves in Khaddafi castles with bottle of wines that cost 20,000 euros , let’s top this non sense hypocrisy . Let him ask why Qatar and Dubai allows it ,are they moslem or half moslems .

        The Maronite patriarch is going to France because he sense the real danger and we are hopeless in a sense with our divisions now , and he knows well what’s coming , and eventually as the Libyans needed help from the west, could be  a day , and hope it will not come to , that the Christians will need a help to prevent massacres . that is said am not sure if the west or France gives a dam anyway, That’s why the Kataeb and Lebanese forces were a necessary protection at certain period of Lebanon history as we never had an army in this country to protect from anything ,just few weeks ago we all  witnessed this louzy army not able to prevent an attack on priests in Lasa (jroud Jbeil)  or the stealing of the land by a bunch of Zaiiatrie  gangs backed by Hizbollah.

        As Christians Lebanese we have our worries to become as all the Arab world , a nation with half shariaa half dictatorship , the fact that you mention in Iraq that because of the American the Chrstians are being slaughtered is not tall rue, the American true caused it by removing the  leader like Saddam, Moubarak who control  the masses from killing Christians ,but the the fact remaisn it happened after their disapperance  it means it is boiling  underneath .

        Just you need to watch a documentary about Islamic schools in Egypt and their hate curriculum against the Christians and the west, funded by the Saudis hypocrites . Teaching young Moslems that their partners in the nation the Copt are Kouffar when they are 5 years old , is no better than Hitler brainwashing the Germans that the Jews are rats , has the same effects , you are breeding hate , and we all saw the disgusting swearing on the Christ on TV while the church being burned .
        We agree about secularism you and I , but as in the past you are always avoiding to hit the bottom of the issues , you keep saying abolish the religion from government, How and when and who, and this will happen while Future TV bombarding Christians with Kouffar for a month? , did anything change with the Sunni religious leaders since the independence ,or they will never stop, from Mufti Khaled who said the PLO is the Moslem Army to Subhi el Saleh who was bashing the Christians in mosque day and night ,to Karami family in Tripoli ,  when we listen to all that crap again , do we need to believe the secular state is at hands. We have to wait until phases 5 of the revolution in the Arab world come , we are at phase one, after that the clashes will happen between the modem Moslems and the fanatics  as the anatics will try to bring dictatorship again and oppress the women.
         
        My point is the existence of Christian as powerful political force is one of the  guarantee of democarcy, without Christian there is no democarcy or freedom , without them in Lebanon with all their defects Lebanon is not Lebanon , without them we will be fully in Iranian similar state , and as we are now  we know well currently the state is run by Hizbollah politically

        1. PROPHET.T Avatar
          PROPHET.T

          Gusss,
          The official and public speech of many clergy men is insensitive to other religions, and I have addressed this issue at this forum numerous times. I’ve advocated that all religious activities should be performed exactly where they should be; within the walls of the church and the mosque, and not on TV.
          As for what the mufti said, I agree that it was not proper and it should not have been said at all. I also think that He was addressing Hariri(downtown Beirut night life) indirectly from the mosque His late father had built. Two or three years ago, He would not have said any of that for reasons we all know. It is a classic case of hypocrisy of religious leaders.
          This is a case where clergy men use their position to send political messages. My call for separation of state and religion was meant to address the mufti(s), the bishops, and their institutions. As for Muslims drinking and denying it sometimes; I think it is a personal choice for some, yet social and cultural traditions forces them to deny it since they can’t fight religion publicly. I’m not giving excuses, but rather explanations.
          Like you said, a secular state takes years to build, but you need to set laws in place. It takes years to establish a secular society where people can choose to pray or not, where people learn to respect and accept others for their humanity, and where people learn to accept those who may have different views than the ones they have. Those of us who live in the west have adapted to western societies because of the laws that discipline us. We follow the law, and then we fit in.
          Iraqi Christians were living peacefully in Iraq until the American occupation. If you don’t want to blame the occupation for their killings, you should at least blame the occupation for not providing protection and security as required by international laws. The US and western forces failed or neglected to provide such security.
          As for the kataeib and the LF offering protection; History tells us otherwise. Without opening old wounds, we all know where militias lead all Lebanese, and not only Christians.
          Only a secular or semi secular state that is strong enough, and which enforces its laws and rules on every citizen can protect Christians and Muslims alike. I don’t want the shiia to believe that HA can protect them from other sects . I can ,to some extend , understand HA ‘s claim that it can protect Lebanon from Israeli attacks, but not protect shiia from other sects.Nor do we want the Sunnis to believe that the Salafite can protect their rights . That would be the worst thing to do, where ever sect provides security to its own followers. This is exactly the tribal mentality we have to get rid of.

        2. geo metro Avatar
          geo metro

          guss you make  a lot of good points however uncomfortable they are to read..

        3. Fadi81 Avatar
          Fadi81

          agree 100%, although we can only battle on one front at a time. and right now HA is the main problem, if the sunni’s are our partners in doing so then so be it. once all militias are dismantled then we can confront domestic issues regarding these radical agendas by all and any islamic expansionists

      4. guss043 Avatar
        guss043

        Yes the Sheiks and the  Priests should be in Mosques and Churches as you say , no doubt about it , but we need to go beyond that  , the speeches of hate should stop regardless it is on TV or private , speeches of ignorance and hate has to be stopped by law regardless if it private and if it is up to me and many like me ,no religious figure will be allowed to talk politics at all !!!. it should be a law banning to discuss and criticise someone else religion , even though with all respect most of the time only the Moslem religious figure are the only one who dare ,even in Europe to classify the Christian as Kouffar as the Nazis classify the Jews. This is ignorance , and reading the Koran doesn’t qaulify any religous figure to criticism other religion as hey are not qualified to talk about Christianity at all!!!

        I was at the Church few months after Sept 11 and an Italian priest had a speech telling people not demonize the Moslem because of few hundred or few thousands fanatic ignorant Moslem that were poisoned by some eveil men that when they die they will have 70 virgins or so on , and ask the to have an open mind toward the Moslem . In Lebanon also I never heard myself or no one told me  that that in Church a priest or bishop was  discussing the Moslem  religion at all or they analysed  Moslem religion , or a religious figure on TV went and said that Moslem relgion is a heretic or a demonic  religion or saying a bad word about it .

         Same should applies to Sheiks in Lebanon , Kabani or anyone else shouldn’t discuss the Christian religion as he’s or they are not qualified to do so  , priests spend their life studying new and old testament to understand the Christ message pirit , Kabbani is not qualified first to discuss it as he didn’t study ” Lahout”  or went to monastery ,or have any idea about what means trinity ,  even if he did he’s not allowed to have such speeches , he’s causing a divide and mistrust that unfortunately already exist for centuries.We all remember how someone drew Cartoon about the prophet in Danemark , in few hours a mob of Moslems with swords went toward al Achrafieh to slaughter Christians, and it it wasn’t to the fast reaction of the people there to call on the army a slaughter would have happened .!!! so better for Kabbani to take it easy, as for now he’s not living in Saudi Arabia , and I bet he wouldn’t like to live there (like to get the money only) and until Lebanon become a Saudi or Iranian satellite ( a big possibility there  ) he have to live with the Christians that have different belief and traditions that he have and he should be happy to have that !!!! and if he doesn’t like he should keep it for himself, as Turkey couldnt silence us fro 500 years  , so not him or anyone else will silence us ever .

         This has to stop “Kouffar ” word need to be abolished from the dictionay of the Moslem preachers , and many voices in Europe and the US congress now are discussing the funds by Saudi Arabia to several countries from Pakistan to Africas that is sent to  establish Moslem schools that preaches intolerance to Christians,

        Teaching moslem that Christians are Kouffar should be banned at once,  first of all because it is Hypocrisy , as the Saudis and other Moslems travel to Europe and drink and hire prostitutes and gamble and so on, and most of the technology that the Moslem world use is the invention of the Christians or what they call  al  ” Kouffar ”

         I have to respect really the Christian church in Lebanon that didn’t bother to answer  Kabbani even he went on for one months of ignorant speeches  , full of hate and fanaticism , as the Church know well what he’s before , and this  is his true face , and what he showed after Hariri death is just a temporary face to the christians as it was his interest and now he doen’t need their support  .

        Before secularism comes , trust has to be established and anyhow as it is now it it is a lost battle for the lebanese Chrstians and many Moslems that are fed up with the intolerance and fanaticism, and many Moslem are paying the price by not being hired in Europe, US andCanada or face racism and if this continue it is going to lead eventuallly of a clash that God know where it will end up
        What secularism you expect really when  Egypt new constitution  it is going to be based or most of it on the Shariaa as it is the demand of the masses or Moslem brotherhood  , and this means the Copt can’t have a representation same as it is now

        1. PROPHET.T Avatar
          PROPHET.T

          Guss,
          I’m not qualified to speak on  behalf  of Sheicks or  preists(not a big fan of them or their institutions), nor am  I qualified  to  write a whole  new  constitution that  would answer  both your concerns and mine. But  I  agree that   we  require  many  laws and  rules,along with proper guidance and teachings by the religious institutions, in order to enforce  civility and  respect  among   our  different religions and  sects. We  also  need  to  ensure  that  these  laws  move  us  toward  secular society, where people   who  pray and  those  who  choose  not  to, are both  respected  and respectful of  each  other.
          Being a Muslim  who  truly  believes  in  secular  way  of life,  who  believes that religion  should  be  a personal  matter  between  people and  God, and who also believes that   religion ,color and race  should never  be  a  reason  to  judge  each  other,I usually avoid discussing  religion,  and I  won’t  break  my  own  rules here. I  would  , however,  say that   every religion has  its own  teachings which is  considered to be  the  truth and  the  only  truth. The  truth  of  this  faith  would  conflict  or  offend  the  truth  of  the other  faith no matter  what you and  I  think. This is no excuse for a   particular faith or the other. There  are issues and  questions  that  have not been  resolved  for  hundreds  of  years ,and  I  have no  illusion that   they  would  be  solved  anytime  soon.
          Some  Muslims  would  get  offended  by  some  Christians( not  necessarily   Christians of Lebanon) who publicly  question  the  prophecy   of  Mohammad, which would negate the entire  Muslim faith. Other  Muslims  ,as  you  said , consider non  Muslims  as  Kuffar, and this is  offensive to  Christians. Jews, for example offend both Christian and Muslims when the deny Jesus and Mohammad.
          We  can  list  many  other  examples of  how  different  faiths offend   other  faiths  by  some of what  they  believe. But I agree  in  what the late  Sayed  Fadlalah  said  in  an interview  with  Marcel Ghanem of LBC; He  said that  Muslims and  Christians  agree on  80 % of  issues  that  relate  to our  humanity and to  the  way  we  should live  our  lives, and there fore  we  should  concentrate and  build on  what  we  have in  common and manage  to  discuss  the  20 % we  differ in an objective and intellectual way  without  offending  each  other.
          As  for  turkey and its rules of 500  years,  the abuse  was  on  almost  everyone, Most  prominent  Shiia  families( the Sader  family  in  Iraq and Iran, Hakim family, in Iraq, and many  others)  escaped  from Lebanon  because of the Turkish  restrictions and threats. Turkey, simple used  Islam( and  rules in  the name of  Islam)  to rule just  like Arab  dictators  used the  threat  for  Israel  to  enforce  martial  laws and  dictatorships.

    5. libnan1 Avatar
      libnan1

      That is exactly what I have been preaching all along. Salafites are the big problem in the Middle East not the Shites. Hariris are the main collaborators with Saudis. I’m with you about selling land, I don’t live in lebanon and have no plans to go there anytime soon. I bought some land in Shaileh about 14 years ago, I get offers of 10 times what I paid for (not sure if it true since no serious discussions ever took place) and refuse it.
      I think the Christians abroad should establish a fund ETF and buy land from people that have to sell or provide them with loans guaranteed so land will stay in Christian hands. I believe this should be encouraged by Muslims so we can keep the Lebanese characteristic in-tacked. 

      I agree with everything you said except for the Aoun thing.

      1. geo metro Avatar
        geo metro

        are the harriris salafites? are all sunnis salafites? are all shia hizbollah? are all christians kataeb? are all palestinians terrorists? are all jews israelites? are all germans nazis? are all iranians extemists?

        1. libnan1 Avatar
          libnan1

          Non of the above, that is exactly why I put down Salafite not Sunnis. Harirs are part of the Salafite expansion in the world. At one time Hariri Sr. said if he can’t Islamise the people he will Islamise the land. That is exactly what Salafites believe in and not the Shites as far as I can tell.   

      2. guss043 Avatar
        guss043

        Like your stand on the land ,Jews but lands by offering high prices first to the Ottoman and later to the Palestinians and took  many lands by force, and this happening to us and to certain extent to the Druze but they are way more united than us.  We don’t need to agree on everything as we are in democracy , just Aoun cheated many of his people who liked his stands ( I don’t like the word followers as we shouldn’t follow but analyze leaders stands on issues )  , I was one of them, for a period of time

  6. guss043 Avatar
    guss043

    There is always hope for the Cristian to regain some of the power they have lost in the past , they lost it ,mainly because of their divisions and stupidity,culminating with the mother of all stupid who made the Christian lose their power no other than the hungry of power the street guy named Aoun .There is hope because we are still in the country , the Jews had to buy their way in after they left 2000 years ago, for us as long we are still in we can remain in .
    Not sure if the church can play the role or we need smart leader (s) and institutions , we need to stop first selling the lands that we have control ,as we know the Shiites are stealing our lands where we have no control like Bekaa and Baalbeck and other , and ,shiites ,sunnis and aran moslem nations are trying to buy lands in the heart of Christian lands, Not all the intention of buyout is to possess the christians lands , some are simply for investment or in other cases ,sunnis who are running away fom the invasion of the sgiites in west Beirut.,but there is many that they are intentional from sunnis and shiites combined ,Selling lands is the last battle that the christian can’t afford to lose , one we sell it we can’t return
    The christian church with all confessions have to stop first selling the land they own before preaching others, Harissa mountain became a shamful mountain with more than 1/2 sold or given for 99 years investment,
    The Orthdodox church could have avoided the building of the Great Mosque in downtown Beirut by the late PM  Hariri ,( I have nothing gainst the mosque except it is not proportionally built considering the size of buildings around it ) if they listen to the owner of the land ( it was ahwet izaz until 1975) who is orthodox when he run to his Orthodox church telling them that Hariri is offering him 10 time the price , but he wanted to sell it to the church , but they turned him down as they say for now they don’t know what to do with it , and so on many stories.
    The Christian have to work hard to regain their power and opportunity will be back soon as Hizbollah is doomed to be weakened after the fall of Syria and the strife will take long and will enable the Christan to recover,
    The Maronite have to open their small mind that they use to have before the 1975 and consider other confessions if they want to exist and open their door to the Iraqis /Syrian .and any Christian who like to be in Lebanon and facilitate their stay ,that’s one hope to gain numbers as the immigrants hope to come back to such mess and leave their jobs and fortune will not be easy .
    I could keep on going and go back to history and what happened and all the mess , but it does not make sense,
    The greed of the maronite after the independence and their love of the money and power and their stupidity to leave their land to the city from areas like the  chouf and other areas ,and their divisions brought us to here, just let them look at their partners in the country the Moslem Shiites and Sunnites with all their divisions they never reached a stage Like the Maronite Aoun and Geagea ( Aoun to blame much more) to kill each other and cause over 200,000 Christians to immigrate in 1990 and to lose their powers and we are not in better situation except the same partied they don’t have arms to kill each other with whatever is left from old men living there
    Elias Sarkis revealed to one man I know ( and all the churches were notified about the meeting)  that the Moslem nations secretly met in Karachi in 1980 and decided by the year 2020 they shouldn’t be any Christians in the middle east , and the plan is going well so farm , the meeting was led by the sneaky Saudi Arabia who fund fanatic Islams in Egypt ( all the attack on christians in Egypt are led by Schools that are funded by Saudi Arabia , they study in books that refer to Christians as Kouffar ) , Pakistan, Afghanistan and all over the west   , 9/11 was excuted by Saudi Citizens mainly .
    The Chritians church shouldnt look at Hizbollah as the danger , as the Sunni are far more dangerous , just watching the moufti Kabbani on Future TV during this Rmadan and hithe way he hit on Christians all the time by referring to them as Kouffar and Mouheebin lel Khmmra even when Beirut bars are mianly filled with Sunni men and girls (like Skyline and Beirut night theatre ) shows how hypocrites the Sunni they are , they want the Christians to b in the front fighting the Shiite and them later getting the results and the fruit as they did in 1975 , they were the cause of the civil war with their dreams to take Lebanon power to them ( and they did) using the Shiite the PLO to achieve that ,splitting the army , without having one Sunni fighting in the street , and after they get the Taef and take the power of the president,
    Christian shouldnt side with anyone as after Syria is over the Sunni will not spare the Shiite neither the Chritians

    1. geo metro Avatar
      geo metro

      guss thanks for your insight and prespective,
      the context of your comments is a representation and proof of how dividing   the  religious  brands are in seeking their own intrest and superiority over one another.

      the question  i pose if we are all trying to date the same  pure and rightous god  wouldnt the results be different?
      in 1981 a very respected friend said to me “if you really believed that  god existed you would live your life completely differently”
      further he went on to say that it that it is impossible to love god or any one unless you get to know them intimately.  

      for the most part the groups  you describe in your comments are largely  a representation of  a feel good religion and not god knowing or loving servants thus explaining the horrible results of intent to harm , kill, and domination of fellow humans.

      no doubt there is a lot of effort to gain and control land as you mentioned in  your comment and no  doubt it is not fashionable for people like me to bring god in the mix but i feel that my comment and prespective is relavent and admissable as long as all the factions operate in the premis of religious god serving   sect.

    2. Avatar
      Anonymous

      Excellent Insight.

    3. PROPHET.T Avatar
      PROPHET.T

      Guss,
      well thought comment. Many good questions were raised, and few of them can be answered.
      I agree with most of your analyses, but not all of your goals. I  think  the goal  should  be  for  Christians  and  all Muslims  to  start  thinking   of  Lebanon  as  nation  for all Lebanese  instead of  a different  Lebanon  for  different  sect.
      The key here is for an overall reform of our political system as well as our social culture. We  need  to  start   teaching  our  kids  that  they  are Lebanese instead of a Christian  or  Muslim,. Religion should be a personal matter, not a national matter. Sectarianism is really the cancer of our nation. No one   sect  should think of itself as more  superior to others, And  no  one  sect  should seek  to  dominate  others, or  have  control of  the nation. Lebanon is for all Lebanese, and they should all share power and responsibilities. All Lebanese  should enjoy  same  rights and obligations, with  some consideration  to  the demographic  make  up   in a fair  way  for  a  period of time    until  we reach  a day  where  most  Lebanese identify  more with  their  Lebanese identity  then  their  religious  one.
      People  should have the right  to  pray( or not pray  at all) as they  see  fit , with  no  interference  by others   and with  no restrictions  from the  state as long as  there is no  disrespect to  others  who  choose  to pray in a different  way. Yet a total separation of state and religion should be in place.
      You have raised the issue of land selling and buying few times. I’m in no position to  determine whether  the land  buying in  Christian areas  is  intended  by  some,  to   push  Christians  out  or  not. But  my  answer to  that is for  Christians  to  hold on to  their lands regardless  of  the intentions of  buyers. As far  as   those  who are  buying  land  as  an  investment , I’m sure  joint  investment  ventures  could  be  a  solution to  ease  the fear  you  have  raised.

      1. Avatar
        Anonymous

        Prophet, The Christians in Iraq are being killed. 

        1. PROPHET.T Avatar
          PROPHET.T

          You are  absolutely  right, Beiruti, But removing  them  from  their  natural and  rightful land  is exactly what   the  killers and the  west  want. No  wonder why  killings of  Iraqi Christians  didn’t  start  until  the  united  states occupied  Iraq.
          So according  to  your analogy, Christians of  Egypt  should  be   asked  to leave   because   terrorists  attacked  their  church and  killed  few  of them? If things  get  worse in Syria ,and  some terrorist  organization  starts  killing  Christians, does that  mean  they  should  leave? You  should  not  give in  to those  who  are  killing Christians  in  order  to  push them  out.

        2. Avatar
          Anonymous

          Not just Iraq but many more nations are doing just as bad or worse to the Christians.
            
          Church burnings and physical attacks on Christians have become commonplace.One Pakistani Christian named Arshed Masih died after radical Muslim leaders, backed by police, burned him alive for refusing to convert to Islam while his wife was raped by police officers.  This incident, which took place on March 19th, 2010 is just another example of how horrible things have become for Christians in Pakistan.
           
          *Egypt- church burnings have become a regular thing. 21 people died when a bomb went of outside the church,  about 4000 muslims violently assuaulted Christians and burned thier houses and a church in a town  called SOUL.
           
          * Nigeria-  Angry that Christian President Goodluck Jonathan defeated Muslim candidate Muhammadu Buhari, Islamists in the Shariah-ruled north began rioting on Monday, April 18, 2011, after preliminary results of the April 16 election were announced. Soon newspapers featured grisly photos of charred bodies lining the streets. Hundreds of churches were burned and thousands of Christian-owned businesses destroyed, according to the Christian human rights group, Open Doors. And International Christian Concern reported that the Kaduna-based Civil Rights Congress was still “discovering more details of massacres that have been carried out in the hinterland.” Upwards of 40,000 Christians have been displaced in the past few weeks.
           
          Ethiopia
          In Ethiopia, dozens of churches are being burned.  The international media is reporting that 69 churches in a single Ethiopian city were burned just in the month of March alone.
           
          This is 1% of what is happening around Asia and the Middle east. Muslims have killed thousands of Christians for just being Christians , burn thier church and torture is even a constant hapenning.

      2. geo metro Avatar
        geo metro

        prophet,
        when chrysler  corporation was  almost bankrupt and wiped out   lee iococa  turned  it around in just 2 years and paid back the money borrowed .
         was he qualified to do the job because he was catholic? no!  he was  simply qualified based on his experiece to run the  company.
         qualifying a government based on sect is like going to a dentist  to fix a broken leg. the results of the current system is a total miss and as you pointed out .
        spirituality is a private matter and i dont doubt that spiritualy healthy people can and have coexisted peacefully.

        like you i live in the us and the last thing on my mind is the color or religion of the president, i just want him to do the  job that he was elected  to do.. so i can enjoy a quality life in the  remaining years with my familly and loved ones.

        1. guss043 Avatar
          guss043

          not sure if you are replying to me also, am not talking about Christian to rule or anything, am talking abot their existence as powerful community who are the heart of Lebanon democracy we like it or not

        2. PROPHET.T Avatar
          PROPHET.T

          geo metro,
          Good day,and Thank you  for  translating my thoughts into words that  are  easy to  understand  and relate  to. LOL. You simplified my comments in few lines when I tried hard   in few pages. Yes color , race  and religion  should never  determine  who  leads or  rules  as long as  this person is qualified , fair, and  law abiding person.
          That being said, I was still being considerate to sectarian sensitivities in Lebanese society. Transforming  Lebanese  society into a  secular  one  will take  time  and  effort, and   it  will have to  be done  gradually, but  with  firm  laws and  regulations in  order  for the   average Lebanese to gets  used  to it, and  feels  secure enough.  There is much fear, some justified and some are not, which needs to be eased and addressed.

        3. Avatar
          Anonymous

          Geo and Prophet,
          Your thinks workes well In a perfect world. Realty is something else.
          First in Lebanon Christians and non Christians don’t always use the same names, so we are always able to identify each other even if IDs don’t mention religion. Second with great respect to my other fellow Lebanese, the Christians will occupy the majority of position in government if qualification is followed. This will cause problems down the road, remember civil war. That is why I believe each sect should have a share in government and then the most qualified person in that sect will occupy that position alocated to his sect.  
          That theory applies in the US as well. If it wasn’t for affirmative action black would have not been included. By setting aside certain contracts for minorities, many employers were forced to look for qualified blacks to fill these positions that otherwise would have been filled by no blacks. Discrimination is still alive in this country as well, again this realty and not fiction. We have work with it.  

        4. Avatar
          Anonymous

          The problem with Christians, generally, has become their religion. They believe others have a right to worship as they wish without interference; they are taken in most readily by ‘taquia’ because they wish to believe others see life as they do, with some honesty, so are willing to ‘discuss’ until it kills them, in the often vain hope that some light is being shed for the general betterment of humans; and failing all, they have learned that ‘turning the other cheek’ does not necessarily mean being hit again … one can simply sell, take some losses, and move to a quiet place with a government that actually functions – hopefully at least for their own lifetimes, even if sad they had to leave.
            Fortunately, a generally more enlightened education allows more of them to see the writing on the wall, and they can gradually disappear into the ‘ether’ long before they are turned into refugees being chased out or killed … not that all of them have been successful in the past on that.
            I’m sure the Patriarch knows why he’s losing his flock … but the French who drew a line 60 years ago are no longer listening closely for Lebanon, I fear. They have their own problems with the taquia crowd. 
            Hell .. they even have Leo 🙂

        5. geo metro Avatar
          geo metro

          5th the  problem with many todays christians is that they are not very  familiar with their own teachings ,scriptures and the significant prophecies being fullfilled before their eyes. if you give a baby milk for the rest of its life with no solid food he will never fully develop. the same way may christians  never consume solid  spiritual food by digging deep into earlier christian  views and teachings and rely on traditions passed down with no spiritual nutrition needed to help them deal with the world conditions that jesus intimately pointed to  as signs of the times.  many dont realize that the majority of the contents of the bible points to the fact that mankind CAN NOT SELF RULE as the break down began in the garden of eden when eve was convinced that by eating the fruit of that specific tree whe would become just like god and not need him any more to her or adam  what they can or can not do….well here we are in 2011 and not 1 form of govenment ever was able to be fair and just to all people  and chrstians putting hope in any worldly human govenrment only indicates that they are not familiar with the kingdom that jesus spoke about as the onl solution for humanity. now before i get the 5th degree  for going there,  let me get a head start and put my helmet on before the rocks start flying my way.lol

        6. Avatar
          Anonymous

          Hehehe .. won’t see any rocks from me Geo. No 5th degree either … obviously no-one has been able to sort it all out anyway. Why would you or I try? And there are a huge number of interpretations of that hugely popular book, just as there are with the Koran or any other theological ‘explanation’ for us being on the planet. Human notes get scrambled often. But we sure don’t go by those only words of God given to Moses on stone, and nothing has been ‘written in stone’ since.
            From our most recent scientific evidence, it seems it took Him about 2.5 million years to finally decide we had evolved enough ‘smarts’ to understand the writing. Maybe a few centuries later He said ‘oops’.
          ‘We’ don’t know …   To Libnan1, I can only state that humans discriminate ALL the time … and this is certainly not an evil thing when it comes to survival as a species. It’s essential. But if we could agree that all humans should be treated by all humans in the same way, perhaps the whole species would see and appreciate what God has at least given us to work with, and only discriminate against human folly. Putting theologians in charge of governments does NOT seem a good option – any more.

        7. PROPHET.T Avatar
          PROPHET.T

          libnan1,
           I know the reality of Lebanese society and its rotten political system. I also know that   this sad reality is not engraved on stones.  Societies and countries can change to the better if there is a will. It takes leadership, teachings, and laws.  It  took  laws and  education  to  build a successful  society out of  outlaws and  poor European  immigrants in the  united states. It didn’t happen overnight, nor would any change in Lebanon happen over night.
           
          You seem to have given  up  on any change that would transform us into a better ,civil, secular, and democratic  one, I didn’t  and won’t  give  up  as long  as I  live. I may  not live to fulfill  those  dreams, but I ‘m  hoping  that   people like  you and  I  and  guess can  make  a difference in  our   dialogue, and  inspire the  younger  generation  to  carry  the torch and become better  citizens  than  us, and  plant  the seeds  for  a better  country  for themselves and for their children.

        8. Avatar
          Anonymous

          Prophet,
          I like to have a society in Lebanon similar to we have in the US. The only thing that is keeping the US society this way is the constitution. We don’t have a constitution like the US, we don’t have the courts and we don’t have the enforcement needed. I actually believe that all we need is a one sentence constitution “Thou shall not kill any other citizen based on religious belief” and we will be OK. We just need that to be added to Lebanon school books and be posted on bulletin boards through out the country and signed by religious leaders, not like the latest speech by the Mufti that called other religions Kafereen because they are not Muslims. I know you don’t support him. Believe it or not our religious teachings can be a big help if people apply it and not interpret it the way they want.

          My point was that the civil war started because Muslims felt left out of government and if we are to implement a system based on qualification we will be setting ourselves for another civil war in 20 years or so when the new generation feel left out. In the mean time we should emphasize education for all Lebanese especially the ones that felt disadvantaged before. Frankly we were disadvantaged in Lebanon, we came from a poor family. Education was our only way out of poverty. I strongly believe that education will lift all.   

        9. Avatar
          Anonymous

          Prophet,
          I like to have a society in Lebanon similar to we have in the US. The only thing that is keeping the US society this way is the constitution. We don’t have a constitution like the US, we don’t have the courts and we don’t have the enforcement needed. I actually believe that all we need is a one sentence constitution “Thou shall not kill any other citizen based on religious belief” and we will be OK. We just need that to be added to Lebanon school books and be posted on bulletin boards through out the country and signed by religious leaders, not like the latest speech by the Mufti that called other religions Kafereen because they are not Muslims. I know you don’t support him. Believe it or not our religious teachings can be a big help if people apply it and not interpret it the way they want.

          My point was that the civil war started because Muslims felt left out of government and if we are to implement a system based on qualification we will be setting ourselves for another civil war in 20 years or so when the new generation feel left out. In the mean time we should emphasize education for all Lebanese especially the ones that felt disadvantaged before. Frankly we were disadvantaged in Lebanon, we came from a poor family. Education was our only way out of poverty. I strongly believe that education will lift all.   

      3. guss043 Avatar
        guss043

        I have no disagreement in what you are  saying and I wish the secular state can be done tomorrow , but as we both know it will not for sometimes , as the church was removed from the power after the french revolution   , the Arab uprising should end up with the same results ( eventually in 25- to 100 years) and eliminate the notion of applying the Shariaa as law.
        Watching the Mufti Kabbani this last Ramadan was a reminder that we are still in Lebanon living in the Mufti,Sheik land     ( am sorry but the Christian bishops don hit on the Moslem religion in public and on TV ) talk and offend the Christian religion bikil wakeha ,he was telling the moslem that is sitting near people drinking in Ramadan  is a sin ( religion is not by showing off ,is by belief , you fast you fast for God, and leave the other alone none of his business ) , hitting on Christian religion several time, as he quoted some book ( Hadith al Nabawi )  where the Christ at the end will bow down to the Prophet and admit that the Islam is the true religion ( As Christian it is very offensive for us such talk .You can’t share the country with Christians and hit on their  religion day and night , the Mufti knows well what he’s doing, he’s pleasing his masses and he’s aligning himself now with the future , with the Syrian revolution that is expected to produce a semi Moslem brotherhood government eventually backed by the Saudis and Turkish and Jordan king.
        You can’t built a country like that , as Christian we are not obliged to hear this non sense ,by being  on TV he’s fueling sentiment about Kouffar and so on, and we know well the hypocrisy of many moslems who drink beyond any Christian (just to go the Bierut clubs ) ,or just now they discover the caves in Khaddafi castles with bottle of wines that cost 20,000 euros , let’s top this non sense hypocrisy . Let him ask why Qatar and Dubai allows it ,are they moslem or half moslems .

        The Maronite patriarch is going to France because he sense the real danger and we are hopeless in a sense with our divisions now , and he knows well what’s coming , and eventually as the Libyans needed help from the west, could be  a day , and hope it will not come to , that the Christians will need a help to prevent massacres . that is said am not sure if the west or France gives a dam anyway, That’s why the Kataeb and Lebanese forces were a necessary protection at certain period of Lebanon history as we never had an army in this country to protect from anything ,just few weeks ago we all  witnessed this louzy army not able to prevent an attack on priests in Lasa (jroud Jbeil)  or the stealing of the land by a bunch of Zaiiatrie  gangs backed by Hizbollah.

        As Christians Lebanese we have our worries to become as all the Arab world , a nation with half shariaa half dictatorship , the fact that you mention in Iraq that because of the American the Chrstians are being slaughtered is not tall rue, the American true caused it by removing the  leader like Saddam, Moubarak who control  the masses from killing Christians ,but the the fact remaisn it happened after their disapperance  it means it is boiling  underneath .

        Just you need to watch a documentary about Islamic schools in Egypt and their hate curriculum against the Christians and the west, funded by the Saudis hypocrites . Teaching young Moslems that their partners in the nation the Copt are Kouffar when they are 5 years old , is no better than Hitler brainwashing the Germans that the Jews are rats , has the same effects , you are breeding hate , and we all saw the disgusting swearing on the Christ on TV while the church being burned .
        We agree about secularism you and I , but as in the past you are always avoiding to hit the bottom of the issues , you keep saying abolish the religion from government, How and when and who, and this will happen while Future TV bombarding Christians with Kouffar for a month? , did anything change with the Sunni religious leaders since the independence ,or they will never stop, from Mufti Khaled who said the PLO is the Moslem Army to Subhi el Saleh who was bashing the Christians in mosque day and night ,to Karami family in Tripoli ,  when we listen to all that crap again , do we need to believe the secular state is at hands. We have to wait until phases 5 of the revolution in the Arab world come , we are at phase one, after that the clashes will happen between the modem Moslems and the fanatics  as the anatics will try to bring dictatorship again and oppress the women.
         
        My point is the existence of Christian as powerful political force is one of the  guarantee of democarcy, without Christian there is no democarcy or freedom , without them in Lebanon with all their defects Lebanon is not Lebanon , without them we will be fully in Iranian similar state , and as we are now  we know well currently the state is run by Hizbollah politically

        1. PROPHET.T Avatar
          PROPHET.T

          Gusss,
          The official and public speech of many clergy men is insensitive to other religions, and I have addressed this issue at this forum numerous times. I’ve advocated that all religious activities should be performed exactly where they should be; within the walls of the church and the mosque, and not on TV.
          As for what the mufti said, I agree that it was not proper and it should not have been said at all. I also think that He was addressing Hariri(downtown Beirut night life) indirectly from the mosque His late father had built. Two or three years ago, He would not have said any of that for reasons we all know. It is a classic case of hypocrisy of religious leaders.
          This is a case where clergy men use their position to send political messages. My call for separation of state and religion was meant to address the mufti(s), the bishops, and their institutions. As for Muslims drinking and denying it sometimes; I think it is a personal choice for some, yet social and cultural traditions forces them to deny it since they can’t fight religion publicly. I’m not giving excuses, but rather explanations.
          Like you said, a secular state takes years to build, but you need set laws in place. It takes years to establish a secular society where people can choose to pray or not, where people learn to respect and accept others for their humanity, and where people learn to accept those who may have different views then the once they have. Those of us who live in the west have adapted to western societies because of the laws that discipline us. We follow the law, and then we fit in.
          Iraqi Christians were living peacefully in Iraq until the American occupation. If you don’t want to blame the occupation for their killings, you should at least blame the occupation for not providing protection and security as required by international laws. The US and western forces failed or neglected to provide such security.
          As for the kataeib and the LF offering protection; History tells us otherwise. Without opening old wounds, we all know where militias lead all Lebanese, and not only Christians.
          Only a secular or semi secular state that is strong enough, and which enforces its laws and rules on every citizen can protect Christians and Muslims alike. I don’t want the shiia to believe that HA can protect them from other sects . I can ,to some extend , understand HA ‘s claim that it can protect Lebanon from Israeli attacks, but not protect shiia from other sects.Nor do we want the Sunnis to believe that the Salafite can protect their rights . That would be the worst thing to do, where ever sect provides security to its own followers. This is exactly the tribal mentality we have to get rid of.

        2. geo metro Avatar
          geo metro

          guss you make  a lot of good points however uncomfortable they are to read..

        3. Avatar
          Anonymous

          agree 100%, although we can only battle on one front at a time. and right now HA is the main problem, if the sunni’s are our partners in doing so then so be it. once all militias are dismantled then we can confront domestic issues regarding these radical agendas by all and any islamic expansionists

      4. guss043 Avatar
        guss043

        Yes the Sheiks and the  Priests should be in Mosques and Churches as you say , no doubt about it , but we need to go beyond that  , the speeches of hate should stop regardless it is on TV or private , speeches of ignorance and hate has to be stopped by law regardless if it private and if it is up to me and many like me ,no religious figure will be allowed to talk politics at all !!!. it should be a law banning to discuss and criticise someone else religion , even though with all respect most of the time only the Moslem religious figure are the only one who dare ,even in Europe to classify the Christian as Kouffar as the Nazis classify the Jews. This is ignorance , and reading the Koran doesn’t qaulify any religous figure to criticism other religion as hey are not qualified to talk about Christianity at all!!!

        I was at the Church few months after Sept 11 and an Italian priest had a speech telling people not demonize the Moslem because of few hundred or few thousands fanatic ignorant Moslem that were poisoned by some eveil men that when they die they will have 70 virgins or so on , and ask the to have an open mind toward the Moslem . In Lebanon also I never heard myself or no one told me  that that in Church a priest or bishop was  discussing the Moslem  religion at all or they analysed  Moslem religion , or a religious figure on TV went and said that Moslem relgion is a heretic or a demonic  religion or saying a bad word about it .

         Same should applies to Sheiks in Lebanon , Kabani or anyone else shouldn’t discuss the Christian religion as he’s or they are not qualified to do so  , priests spend their life studying new and old testament to understand the Christ message pirit , Kabbani is not qualified first to discuss it as he didn’t study ” Lahout”  or went to monastery ,or have any idea about what means trinity ,  even if he did he’s not allowed to have such speeches , he’s causing a divide and mistrust that unfortunately already exist for centuries.We all remember how someone drew Cartoon about the prophet in Danemark , in few hours a mob of Moslems with swords went toward al Achrafieh to slaughter Christians, and it it wasn’t to the fast reaction of the people there to call on the army a slaughter would have happened .!!! so better for Kabbani to take it easy, as for now he’s not living in Saudi Arabia , and I bet he wouldn’t like to live there (like to get the money only) and until Lebanon become a Saudi or Iranian satellite ( a big possibility there  ) he have to live with the Christians that have different belief and traditions that he have and he should be happy to have that !!!! and if he doesn’t like he should keep it for himself, as Turkey couldnt silence us fro 500 years  , so not him or anyone else will silence us ever .

         This has to stop “Kouffar ” word need to be abolished from the dictionay of the Moslem preachers , and many voices in Europe and the US congress now are discussing the funds by Saudi Arabia to several countries from Pakistan to Africas that is sent to  establish Moslem schools that preaches intolerance to Christians,

        Teaching moslem that Christians are Kouffar should be banned at once,  first of all because it is Hypocrisy , as the Saudis and other Moslems travel to Europe and drink and hire prostitutes and gamble and so on, and most of the technology that the Moslem world use is the invention of the Christians or what they call  al  ” Kouffar ”

         I have to respect really the Christian church in Lebanon that didn’t bother to answer  Kabbani even he went on for one months of ignorant speeches  , full of hate and fanaticism , as the Church know well what he’s before , and this  is his true face , and what he showed after Hariri death is just a temporary face to the christians as it was his interest and now he doen’t need their support  .

        Before secularism comes , trust has to be established and anyhow as it is now it it is a lost battle for the lebanese Chrstians and many Moslems that are fed up with the intolerance and fanaticism, and many Moslem are paying the price by not being hired in Europe, US andCanada or face racism and if this continue it is going to lead eventuallly of a clash that God know where it will end up
        What secularism you expect really when  Egypt new constitution  it is going to be based or most of it on the Shariaa as it is the demand of the masses or Moslem brotherhood  , and this means the Copt can’t have a representation same as it is now

        1. PROPHET.T Avatar
          PROPHET.T

          Guss,
          I’m not qualified  to speak on  behalf  of Sheicks or  preists, nor am  I qualified  to  write a whole  new  constitution that  would answer  all of  your  questions. But  I  agree that   we  require  many  laws and  rules  to enforce  civility and  respect  among   our  different religions and  sects. We  also  need  to  ensure  that  these  laws  move  us  toward  secular society, where people   who  pray and  those  who  choose  not  to are  no both  respected  and respectful of  each  other.
          Being a Muslim  who  truly  believes  in  secular  way  of life,  who also  believes that religion  should  be  a personal  matter  between  people and  God, and who also believes that   religion ,color and race  should never  be  a  reason  to  judge  each  other,I usually avoid discussing  religion,  and I  won’t  break  my  own  rules here. I  would  , however,  say that   every religion has  its own  teachings which is  considered to be  the  truth and  the  only  truth. The  truth  of  this  faith  would  conflict  or  offend  the  truth  of  the other  faith no matter  what you and  I  think. This is no excuse for a   particular faith or the other. There  are issues and  questions  that  have not been  resolved  for  hundreds  of  years ,and  I  have no  illusion that   they  would  be  solved  anytime  soon.
          Some  Muslims  would  get  offended  by  some  Christians( not  necessarily   Christians of Lebanon) who publicly  question  the  prophecy   of  Mohammad, which would negate the entire  Muslim faith. Other  Muslims  ,as  you  said , consider non  Muslims  as  Kuffar, and this is  offensive to  Christians. Jews, for example offend both Christian and Muslims when the deny Jesus and Mohammad.
          We  can  list  many  other  examples of  how  different  faiths offend   other  faiths  by  some of what  they  believe. But I agree  in  what the late  Sayed  Fadlalah  said  in  an interview  with  Marcel Ghanem of LBC; He  said that  Muslims and  Christians  agree on  80 % of  issues  that  relate  to our  humanity and to  the  way  we  should live  our  lives, and there fore  we  should  concentrate and  build on  what  we  have in  common and manage  to  discuss  the  20 % we  differ in a objective and intellectual way  without  offending  each  other.
          As  for  turkey and its rules of 500  years,  the abuse  was  on  almost  everyone, Most  prominent  Shiia  families( the Sader  family  in  Iraq and Iran, Hakim family, in Iraq, and many  others)  escaped  from Lebanon  because of the Turkish  restrictions and threats. Turkey, simple used  Islam( and  rules in  the name of  Islam)  to rule just  like Arab  dictators  used the  threat  for  Israel  to  enforce  martial  laws and  dictatorships.

        2. PROPHET.T Avatar
          PROPHET.T

          Guss,
          I’m not qualified  to speak on  behalf  of Sheicks or  preists, nor am  I qualified  to  write a whole  new  constitution that  would answer  all of  your  questions. But  I  agree that   we  require  many  laws and  rules  to enforce  civility and  respect  among   our  different religions and  sects. We  also  need  to  ensure  that  these  laws  move  us  toward  secular society, where people   who  pray and  those  who  choose  not  to are  no both  respected  and respectful of  each  other.
          Being a Muslim  who  truly  believes  in  secular  way  of life,  who also  believes that religion  should  be  a personal  matter  between  people and  God, and who also believes that   religion ,color and race  should never  be  a  reason  to  judge  each  other,I usually avoid discussing  religion,  and I  won’t  break  my  own  rules here. I  would  , however,  say that   every religion has  its own  teachings which is  considered to be  the  truth and  the  only  truth. The  truth  of  this  faith  would  conflict  or  offend  the  truth  of  the other  faith no matter  what you and  I  think. This is no excuse for a   particular faith or the other. There  are issues and  questions  that  have not been  resolved  for  hundreds  of  years ,and  I  have no  illusion that   they  would  be  solved  anytime  soon.
          Some  Muslims  would  get  offended  by  some  Christians( not  necessarily   Christians of Lebanon) who publicly  question  the  prophecy   of  Mohammad, which would negate the entire  Muslim faith. Other  Muslims  ,as  you  said , consider non  Muslims  as  Kuffar, and this is  offensive to  Christians. Jews, for example offend both Christian and Muslims when the deny Jesus and Mohammad.
          We  can  list  many  other  examples of  how  different  faiths offend   other  faiths  by  some of what  they  believe. But I agree  in  what the late  Sayed  Fadlalah  said  in  an interview  with  Marcel Ghanem of LBC; He  said that  Muslims and  Christians  agree on  80 % of  issues  that  relate  to our  humanity and to  the  way  we  should live  our  lives, and there fore  we  should  concentrate and  build on  what  we  have in  common and manage  to  discuss  the  20 % we  differ in a objective and intellectual way  without  offending  each  other.
          As  for  turkey and its rules of 500  years,  the abuse  was  on  almost  everyone, Most  prominent  Shiia  families( the Sader  family  in  Iraq and Iran, Hakim family, in Iraq, and many  others)  escaped  from Lebanon  because of the Turkish  restrictions and threats. Turkey, simple used  Islam( and  rules in  the name of  Islam)  to rule just  like Arab  dictators  used the  threat  for  Israel  to  enforce  martial  laws and  dictatorships.

    4. Avatar
      Anonymous

      That is exactly what I have been preaching all along. Salafites are the big problem in the Middle East not the Shites. Hariris are the main collaborators with Saudis. I’m with you about selling land, I don’t live in lebanon and have no plans to go there anytime soon. I bought some land in Shaileh about 14 years ago, I get offers of 10 times what I paid for (not sure if it true since no serious discussions ever took place) and refuse it.
      I think the Christians abroad should establish a fund ETF and buy land from people that have to sell or provide them with loans guaranteed so land will stay in Christian hands. I believe this should be encouraged by Muslims so we can keep the Lebanese characteristic in-tacked. 

      I agree with everything you said except for the Aoun thing.

      1. geo metro Avatar
        geo metro

        are the harriris salafites? are all sunnis salafites?

        1. Avatar
          Anonymous

          Non of the above, that is exactly why I put down Salafite not Sunnis. Harirs are part of the Salafite expansion in the world. At one time Hariri Sr. said if he can’t Islamise the people he will Islamise the land. That is exactly what Salafites believe in and not the Shites as far as I can tell.   

      2. geo metro Avatar
        geo metro

        are the harriris salafites? are all sunnis salafites?

      3. guss043 Avatar
        guss043

        Like your stand on the land ,Jews but lands by offering high prices first to the Ottoman and later to the Palestinians and took  many lands by force, and this happening to us and to certain extent to the Druze but they are way more united than us.  We don’t need to agree on everything as we are in democracy , just Aoun cheated many of his people who liked his stands ( I don’t like the word followers as we shouldn’t follow but analyze leaders stands on issues )  , I was one of them, for a period of time

      4. guss043 Avatar
        guss043

        Like your stand on the land ,Jews but lands by offering high prices first to the Ottoman and later to the Palestinians and took  many lands by force, and this happening to us and to certain extent to the Druze but they are way more united than us.  We don’t need to agree on everything as we are in democracy , just Aoun cheated many of his people who liked his stands ( I don’t like the word followers as we shouldn’t follow but analyze leaders stands on issues )  , I was one of them, for a period of time

  7. guss043 Avatar
    guss043

    There is always hope for the Cristian to regain some of the power they have lost in the past , they lost it ,mainly because of their divisions and stupidity,culminating with the mother of all stupid who made the Christian lose their power no other than the hungry of power the street guy named Aoun .There is hope because we are still in the country , the Jews had to buy their way in after they left 2000 years ago, for us as long we are still in we can remain in .
    Not sure if the church can play the role or we need smart leader (s) and institutions , we need to stop first selling the lands that we have control ,as we know the Shiites are stealing our lands where we have no control like Bekaa and Baalbeck and other , and ,shiites ,sunnis and aran moslem nations are trying to buy lands in the heart of Christian lands, Not all the intention of buyout is to possess the christians lands , some are simply for investment or in other cases ,sunnis who are running away fom the invasion of the sgiites in west Beirut.,but there is many that they are intentional from sunnis and shiites combined ,Selling lands is the last battle that the christian can’t afford to lose , one we sell it we can’t return
    The christian church with all confessions have to stop first selling the land they own before preaching others, Harissa mountain became a shamful mountain with more than 1/2 sold or given for 99 years investment,
    The Orthdodox church could have avoided the building of the Great Mosque in downtown Beirut by the late PM  Hariri ,( I have nothing gainst the mosque except it is not proportionally built considering the size of buildings around it ) if they listen to the owner of the land ( it was ahwet izaz until 1975) who is orthodox when he run to his Orthodox church telling them that Hariri is offering him 10 time the price , but he wanted to sell it to the church , but they turned him down as they say for now they don’t know what to do with it , and so on many stories.
    The Christian have to work hard to regain their power and opportunity will be back soon as Hizbollah is doomed to be weakened after the fall of Syria and the strife will take long and will enable the Christan to recover,
    The Maronite have to open their small mind that they use to have before the 1975 and consider other confessions if they want to exist and open their door to the Iraqis /Syrian .and any Christian who like to be in Lebanon and facilitate their stay ,that’s one hope to gain numbers as the immigrants hope to come back to such mess and leave their jobs and fortune will not be easy .
    I could keep on going and go back to history and what happened and all the mess , but it does not make sense,
    The greed of the maronite after the independence and their love of the money and power and their stupidity to leave their land to the city from areas like the  chouf and other areas ,and their divisions brought us to here, just let them look at their partners in the country the Moslem Shiites and Sunnites with all their divisions they never reached a stage Like the Maronite Aoun and Geagea ( Aoun to blame much more) to kill each other and cause over 200,000 Christians to immigrate in 1990 and to lose their powers and we are not in better situation except the same partied they don’t have arms to kill each other with whatever is left from old men living there
    Elias Sarkis revealed to one man I know ( and all the churches were notified about the meeting)  that the Moslem nations secretly met in Karachi in 1980 and decided by the year 2020 they shouldn’t be any Christians in the middle east , and the plan is going well so farm , the meeting was led by the sneaky Saudi Arabia who fund fanatic Islams in Egypt ( all the attack on christians in Egypt are led by Schools that are funded by Saudi Arabia , they study in books that refer to Christians as Kouffar ) , Pakistan, Afghanistan and all over the west   , 9/11 was excuted by Saudi Citizens mainly .
    The Chritians church shouldnt look at Hizbollah as the danger , as the Sunni are far more dangerous , just watching the moufti Kabbani on Future TV during this Rmadan and hithe way he hit on Christians all the time by referring to them as Kouffar and Mouheebin lel Khmmra even when Beirut bars are mianly filled with Sunni men and girls (like Skyline and Beirut night theatre ) shows how hypocrites the Sunni they are , they want the Christians to b in the front fighting the Shiite and them later getting the results and the fruit as they did in 1975 , they were the cause of the civil war with their dreams to take Lebanon power to them ( and they did) using the Shiite the PLO to achieve that ,splitting the army , without having one Sunni fighting in the street , and after they get the Taef and take the power of the president,
    Christian shouldnt side with anyone as after Syria is over the Sunni will not spare the Shiite neither the Chritians

  8. tim Avatar
    tim

    ASKING FOR THE PROTECTION OF LEBANESE CHRISTIANS FROM A ROGUE FRENCH , HUNGARIAN JEW ??? IT’S LIKE ASKING THE VICHY GOVERNMENT TO ” PLEASE ” STOP  BOOT – LICKING & KILLING IN THE NAME OF THE THIRD REICH .

  9. tim Avatar
    tim

    ASKING FOR THE PROTECTION OF LEBANESE CHRISTIANS FROM A ROGUE FRENCH , HUNGARIAN JEW ??? IT’S LIKE ASKING THE VICHY GOVERNMENT TO ” PLEASE ” STOP  BOOT – LICKING & SUPPORTING THE THIRD REICH .

  10. Leborigine Avatar
    Leborigine

    Patriarch Rai, with all due respect of what you are doing and being our spiritual leader, can you please just concentrate on the Lebanese Xtians and the Lebanese population in general? I know excactly how the syrian Xtians feel towards the Lebanese Xtians, they hate us and despise us more than any other mob in the region. So please concentrate on a Lebanese dialogue to bring the Lebanese together instead of bringing one sect from different nationalities together. 

  11. Avatar
    Anonymous

    Patriarch Rai, with all due respect of what you are doing and being our spiritual leader, can you please just concentrate on the Lebanese Xtians and the Lebanese population in general? I know excactly how the syrian Xtians feel towards the Lebanese Xtians, they hate us and despise us more than any other mob in the region. So please concentrate on a Lebanese dialogue to bring the Lebanese together instead of bringing one sect from different nationalities together. 

  12. leobetapar Avatar
    leobetapar

    hey master 09 when you are ignorant shut up better .You look so insane ignoring that Ethiopia is a christian country and that Johatan Goodluck is working for a party mainly muslims when you don’t know ask or shut up
    Now the patriarch is a clever guy he now that by the end of the year Irak will be free of americans and that the great gift of God the UMA (union of the monotheisme arab)will start better to acknowledge the french of that
    The UMA will be composed of Irak Syria Iran and Lebanon and more in case the ahl shitty of the gulf try to meddle in UMA business

    1. 5thDrawer Avatar
      5thDrawer

      Take a trip there Leo … please. Tell me which brain-dead idiots are holding the weapons.
      (I meant Ethiopia, Leo ..)

      1. leobetapar Avatar
        leobetapar

        no weapons we don’t use weapons France have the 2.1 nuke they never use a nuke Russia and China too.Just americans leave Irak first in december after Teheran test it’s nuclear capability and after down this nice umbrella Irak Syrie Lebanon with Iran will make a federation .May be they will call it UMA union of the monotheiste arabs Who speak about weapons ?evidently if the ahl shitty are not happy we will remenber that’s the oil is normally for the ones who have their feet upon and will clear of them south west of the Arabia and Bahrein ,but we will give money back for the upholding of Mecka and Medina

        1. Fadi81 Avatar
          Fadi81

          all this “ahl shitty” talk you seem to be stuck on is funny. maybe im ignorant but i have no idea wtf it means! Only one thing is certain, and that is in your mind you’re still in some sort of EPIC muslim vs muslim battle lol….loose the hate in your heart and open your brain up to the times bro, you’re making an ass out of yourself every time you post.

          1. leobetapar Avatar
            leobetapar

            you are not intelligent too,me i make point and put forward fact when you like the basic idiot sunnis( i don’t say hey are all idiots)you just insult

    2. master09 Avatar
      master09

      What ask who? you, do you know anything read what I write you reply back about a subject I am not talking about. I will never come DOWN  to your level and tell you to S..t up. Tell me about ethiopia please educate me. I am so xcited I can’t wait for your teaching can I pay you as well. You make me LAUGH tell me that in SUDAN, AFGHANISTAN IRAQ SAUDI ARABIA PAKISTAN EGYPT INDONESIA NORTH KOREA AND MANY MORE PLACES KILLING OF CHRISTIANS IS DONE BY THE CHRISTIANS RITE. Get a life you blinded clown and stop been stuck like the rest of them in 640 AD.   You cant rite and now I know you cant read or maybe because you don’t want to know the facts only your facts.

  13. Avatar
    Anonymous

    hey master 09 when you are ignorant shut up better .You look so insane ignoring that Ethiopia is a christian country and that Johatan Goodluck is working for a party mainly muslims when you don’t know ask or shut up
    Now the patriarch is a clever guy he now that by the end of the year Irak will be free of americans and that the great gift of God the UMA (union of the monotheisme arab)will start better to acknowledge the french of that
    The UMA will be composed of Irak Syria Iran and Lebanon and more in case the ahl shitty of the gulf try to meddle in UMA business

    1. Avatar
      Anonymous

      Take a trip there Leo … please. Tell me which brain-dead idiots are holding the weapons.

      1. Avatar
        Anonymous

        no weapons we don’t use weapons France have the 2.1 nuke they never use a nuke Russia and China too.Just americans leave Irak first in december after Teheran test it’s nuclear capability and after down this nice umbrella Irak Syrie Lebanon with Iran will make a federation .May be they will call it UMA union of the monotheiste arabs Who speak about weapons ?evidently if the ahl shitty are not happy we will remenber that’s the oil is normally for the ones who have their feet upon and will clear of them south west of the Arabia and Bahrein ,but we will give money back for the upholding of Mecka and Medina

        1. Avatar
          Anonymous

          all this “ahl shitty” talk you seem to be stuck on is funny. maybe im ignorant but i have no idea wtf it means! Only one thing is certain, and that is in your mind you’re still in some sort of EPIC muslim vs muslim battle lol….loose the hate in your heart and open your brain up to the times bro, you’re making an ass out of yourself every time you post.

          1. Avatar
            Anonymous

            you are not intelligent too,me i make point and put forward fact when you like the basic idiot sunnis( i don’t say hey are all idiots)you just insult

    2. Avatar
      Anonymous

      Take a trip there Leo … please. Tell me which brain-dead idiots are holding the weapons.

    3. Avatar
      Anonymous

      Take a trip there Leo … please. Tell me which brain-dead idiots are holding the weapons.

    4. Avatar
      Anonymous

      What ask who? you, do you know anything read what I write you reply back about a subject I am not talking about. I will never come DOWN  to your level and tell you to S..t up. Tell me about ethiopia please educate me. I am so xcited I can’t wait for your teaching can I pay you as well. You make me LAUGH tell me that in SUDAN, AFGHANISTAN IRAQ SAUDI ARABIA PAKISTAN EGYPT INDONESIA NORTH KOREA AND MANY MORE PLACES KILLING OF CHRISTIANS IS DONE BY THE CHRISTIANS RITE. Get a life you blinded clown and stop been stuck like the rest of them in 640 AD.   You cant rite and now I know you cant read or maybe because you don’t want to know the facts only your facts.

  14. Avatar
    Anonymous

    hey master 09 when you are ignorant shut up better .You look so insane ignoring that Ethiopia is a christian country and that Johatan Goodluck is working for a party mainly muslims when you don’t know ask or shut up
    Now the patriarch is a clever guy he now that by the end of the year Irak will be free of americans and that the great gift of God the UMA (union of the monotheisme arab)will start better to acknowledge the french of that
    The UMA will be composed of Irak Syria Iran and Lebanon and more in case the ahl shitty of the gulf try to meddle in UMA business

  15. 5thDrawer Avatar
    5thDrawer

    Privacy? One expects privacy in this day and age? HELL !!  They even want to know what bloody religion you are. !!

  16. Avatar
    Anonymous

    Privacy? One expects privacy in this day and age? HELL !!  They even want to know what bloody religion you are. !!

  17. Avatar
    Anonymous

    Privacy? One expects privacy in this day and age? HELL !!  They even want to know what bloody religion you are. !!

  18. Avatar
    Anonymous

    Privacy? One expects privacy in this day and age? HELL !!  They even want to know what bloody religion you are. !!

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